X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from wx-out-0506.google.com ([66.249.82.236] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.1.12) with ESMTP id 2402625 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 23 Oct 2007 13:50:24 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=66.249.82.236; envelope-from=msteitle@gmail.com Received: by wx-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id i27so1580728wxd for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2007 10:49:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; bh=k07BWBC3hrMYIUH/xKTv+abwcCLS63sZPsPXsOdjT6c=; b=SMndzuIJ6PEZaXuyZ5xNbgHhz7Eq83hGuzs3fKH2dESAadrAxhLE//Xv6Q7IjGCo/2Lo3I1Dvjc3t1doBCh+9QbyBSv2j86B20eI4Ozk0ABy/qgcmQfADrfvQJL1ZEz6pCdY3GFcahedjiVPkgnANFI1Xw0fY1PgeL5ZeBoSeOo= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=RcHYgc3tcR5wgUE9rwcsHMTbsCt0dawEIbyXy0EAukcj4cdAR2r/4FuuH1anJqap/2Dp1J3yasKHKNddETAaazUbxbm24sZgw9GKUMlHoofFcfaOz30QavhonDNBeczREjML23yLNyRfCqN13pF6M/nxgeRwENOIRecNtukASas= Received: by 10.90.86.10 with SMTP id j10mr769938agb.1193161785602; Tue, 23 Oct 2007 10:49:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.90.103.6 with HTTP; Tue, 23 Oct 2007 10:49:45 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <5cf132c0710231049o2f483ce6w42474bb2fd183a90@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 12:49:45 -0500 From: "Mark Steitle" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Cooling Update - Lancair ES/20B In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_2336_27331642.1193161785592" References: ------=_Part_2336_27331642.1193161785592 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Yes, blue masking tape would make a nice fashion statement too! ;-) Mark On 10/23/07, wrjjrs@aol.com wrote: > > Mark, thats the way all the racers do it. Some like that new blue masking > tape as it doesn't leave as much gunk behind. > Bill Jepson > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Mark Steitle > To: Rotary motors in aircraft > Sent: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 9:01 am > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Cooling Update - Lancair ES/20B > > That's why they invented duct tape. ;-) > > Mark > > > On 10/23/07, Kelly Troyer wrote: > > > > Mark, > > I presume you can temporarily block off the air to you air/oil cooler > > to > > test this theory ?? > > -- > > Kelly Troyer > > "Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine > > "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2 > > "Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------- Original message from "Mark Steitle" < msteitle@gmail.com>: > > -------------- > > > > Bill, > > > > Oil temp is measured as oil enters the engine at the filter pad. Water > > temp is measured at the thermostat housing as the coolant leaves the > > engine. (I had also been measuring the oil temps leaving the engine and > > would see 225 - 250*F. I had to remove this sensor when I installed the > > oil/water exchanger.) > > > > Prior to this change, in a slow cruise (5200 rpm), water temps had been > > as low as 140-150. So, it brought the water temps up by about 25 - 35*F. I > > have a pretty large radiator. > > > > I'm hoping that I will be able to remove the oil/air cooler and block > > off that inlet. This should bring the oil temps more in line with the water > > temps. Also, this would reduce the pressure inside the cowl thereby > > improving the airflow through the water radiator, and increase > > the efficiency of the system in the process. We'll see. > > > > Mark > > > > > > On 10/23/07, Bill Schertz wrote: > > > > > > Mark, > > > Interesting data, to help me understand it better \: > > > > > > 1. Oil flow from engine to oil/water cooler to oil/air cooler to > > > engine? where is the temperature measured? > > > 2. Where is water temp measured? > > > 3. What was water temp under similar conditions prior to the change? > > > > > > Bill Schertz > > > KIS Cruiser #4045 > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > *From:* Mark Steitle > > > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > > > *Sent:* Tuesday, October 23, 2007 8:00 AM > > > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Cooling Update - Lancair ES/20B > > > > > > > > > OK, I was going to wait to discuss this at the fly-in, but I was > > > chastized for keeping this to myself, so here goes. > > > > > > My 3-rotor Lancair ES has had excessive oil temps of 225 - 235*F (in > > > climb) since first flight. Opening the cowl exit area helped enough to get > > > me in the air for more than a lap around the pattern, but I was > > > climb-limited to about 500fpm. I was anticipating better performance once > > > the Texas summer heat subsided, but that just didn't happen this year (temps > > > in the high 80's just last weekend). So, I decided to try an oil/water heat > > > exchanger. I found a NASCAR Fluidyne unit on ebay and managed to "win" the > > > bid. It required that I do major surgery to the cooling system, including > > > relocating some items on the firewall to make room for the new heat > > > exchanger. I finished it up Sunday afternoon and did a couple of ground > > > runs and things looked promising (it didn't leak). So, I decided to go for > > > a short t est flight. > > > > > > I set the M/T constant speed prop to 2300 rpm, which will give me > > > takeoff rpm in the mid to upper 6K range. OAT was about 88*F. I > > > accelerated and where I would normally have to throttle back to keep temps > > > under 230*F, the temps were in the 180* range. So, I kept the power on, > > > climbing like I have never climbed before (1400 fpm). This is a 4-place, > > > 2100# empty airplane. I kept it WOT until I reached 2000 msl (1500agl) and > > > then noticed that I forgot to retract the 10* flaps used for takeoff. So, I > > > cruised around at 2500 - 3000 msl and water temp was 170 - 177*F, oil temps > > > were 160 - 165*F. Before this mod, my oil temps would normally be approx. > > > 185 - 190*F in cruise. Needless to say, I was very happy. > > > > > > The difference in my oil/water arrangement is that I tapped the water > > > pump with a 1/2" line just before it enters the front side housing and I use > > > this "cool" water to supply the water to the oil/wat er exchanger. I return > > > the heated water to the engine discharge leading to the radiator. I felt > > > this would still provide sufficient coolant flow through the engine as some > > > guys are running the smaller 13B pump on their 3-rotor engines without a > > > problem. The 20B water pump impeller is 1/4" larger diameter. From my > > > initial flight, it seems that there is plenty of coolant flow to keep the > > > engine cool. > > > > > > It is really too early to tell for certain, but things look very > > > promising. I will try and take some pictures to bring with me to the Rotary > > > Fly-In. > > > > > > Finally, to give credit where credit is due, I am told that Leon (from > > > down under) has been using this design for years with great success. I > > > thank Leon for sharing his racer tricks with the group. > > > > > > Mark S. > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail > ! > > ------=_Part_2336_27331642.1193161785592 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline
Yes, blue masking tape would make a nice fashion statement too!  = ;-)
 
Mark

 
On 10/23/07, wrjjrs@aol.com <wrjjrs@aol.com> wrote:
Mark, thats the way all the race= rs do it. Some like that new blue masking tape as it doesn't leave as m= uch gunk behind.
Bill Jepson


-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Steitle= <msteitle@gmail.com>
To= : Rotary motors in aircraft < flyrotary@lancaironline.net<= /a>>
Sent: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 9:01 am
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Cooli= ng Update - Lancair ES/20B

That's why they invented duct tape.  ;-)
 
Mark

 
On 10/23/07, Kelly Troyer <keltro@att.net&= gt; wrote: =20
Mark,
   I presume you can temporarily block off the air to you ai= r/oil cooler to
test this theory ??
--
Kelly Troyer
"Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine
&q= uot;RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold <= br>


 

-------------- Original message from "Mark Steitle"= ; < msteitle@gmail.com>: --------------

Bill,
 
Oil temp is measured as oil enters the engine at the filter pad. = Water temp is measured at the thermostat housing as the coolant leaves the= engine.  (I had also been measuring the oil temps leaving the engine = and would see 225 - 250*F.  I had to remove this sensor when I install= ed the oil/water exchanger.) =20
 
Prior to this change, in a slow cruise (5200 rpm), water temps had bee= n as low as 140-150.  So, it brought the water temps up by about 25 - = 35*F.  I have a pretty large radiator. 
 
I'm hoping that I will be able to remove the oil/air coo= ler and block off that inlet.  This should bring the oil temps more in= line with the water temps.  Also, this would reduce the pressure insi= de the cowl thereby improving the airflow through the water radiator, and i= ncrease the efficiency of the system in the process.  We'= ;ll see. =20

Mark
 
 
On 10/23/07, Bill Schertz <wschertz@comc= ast.net=20 > wrote:=20
Mark,
Interesting data, to help me understan= d it better \:
 
1. Oil flow from engine to oil/water c= ooler to oil/air cooler to engine? where is the temperature measured?
2. Where is water temp measured?
3. What was water temp under similar c= onditions prior to the change?
 
Bill Schertz
KIS Cruiser #4045
----- Original Message -----
From: Mark Steitle=
Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 8:00= AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Cooling Update = - Lancair ES/20B

 
OK, I was going to wait to discuss this at the fly-in,= but I was chastized for keeping this to myself, so here goes.

My 3= -rotor Lancair ES has had excessive oil temps of 225 - 235*F (in climb) sin= ce first flight.  Opening the cowl exit area helped enough to get me i= n the air for more than a lap around the pattern, but I was climb-limited t= o about 500fpm.  I was anticipating better performance once the Texas = summer heat subsided, but that just didn't happen this year (temps in t= he high 80's just last weekend).  So, I decided to try an oil/wate= r heat exchanger.  I found a NASCAR Fluidyne unit on ebay and managed = to "win" the bid.  It required that I do major surgery to th= e cooling system, including relocating some items on the firewall to make r= oom for the new heat exchanger.  I finished it up Sunday afternoon and= did a couple of ground runs and things looked promising (it didn't lea= k).  So, I decided to go for a short t est flight. =20

I set the  M/T constant speed prop to 2300 rpm, which will giv= e me takeoff rpm in the mid to upper 6K range.  OAT was about 88*F.&nb= sp; I accelerated and where I would normally have to throttle back to keep = temps under 230*F, the temps were in the 180* range.  So, I kept the p= ower on, climbing like I have never climbed before (1400 fpm).  This i= s a 4-place, 2100# empty airplane.  I kept it WOT until I reached 2000= msl (1500agl) and then noticed that I forgot to retract the 10* flaps used= for takeoff. So, I cruised around at 2500 - 3000 msl and water temp was 17= 0 - 177*F, oil temps were 160 - 165*F.  Before this mod, my oil temps = would normally be approx. 185 - 190*F in cruise.  Needless to say, I w= as very happy. =20

The difference in my oil/water arrangement is that I tapped the wat= er pump with a 1/2" line just before it enters the front side housing = and I use this "cool" water to supply the water to the oil/wat er= exchanger.  I return the heated water to the engine discharge leading= to the radiator.  I felt this would still provide sufficient coolant = flow through the engine as some guys are running the smaller 13B pump on th= eir 3-rotor engines without a problem.  The 20B water pump impeller is= 1/4" larger diameter.  From my initial flight, it seems tha= t there is plenty of coolant flow to keep the engine cool.=20

It is really too early to tell for certain, but things look very pr= omising.  I will try and take some pictures to bring with me to the Ro= tary Fly-In. 

Finally, to give credit where credit is due, I a= m told that Leon (from down under) has been using this design for years wit= h great success.  I thank Leon for sharing his racer tricks with the g= roup. =20

Mark S.


 
Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail!
 

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