X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from wx-out-0506.google.com ([66.249.82.239] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.1.12) with ESMTP id 2402232 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 23 Oct 2007 10:43:56 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=66.249.82.239; envelope-from=msteitle@gmail.com Received: by wx-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id i27so1533252wxd for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2007 07:43:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; bh=E+UkuDnhDn8PF+1WlFWuXQYnZbywHvIi8+ueTgeLRsA=; b=n+wGSqpltG4gcPghErPoLvSzJMFPbcl5RJKKE3UalSI9xW11qOnaC+xNqSO5jus4uOX9M1c0q4PYmGAeXcJ0WZHDgDjnbhDzUVWcD9C25VVg0Rffspm2o4G4WIXHT8hp+CzXPIH6UL8WOuUIQ18361Z6x/4zPLmvIpaIXOvFcyQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=D6QwN0OAH6dGaRQuhTqdXST0f5d2yHMuC07Os1jMnAYPrVKDyc3XfRTiAKUcyV3MBFhwk3aSlcYWV55Fv2uRfRaXWQlDhN6IOXc4LXK32gbSEwWvp2R9prGGPBrRmd2XUhj0yO9OSB5fGi9Qil7BBBLFHgg1u5fBVU+0ECnKjjU= Received: by 10.90.34.9 with SMTP id h9mr620064agh.1193150599415; Tue, 23 Oct 2007 07:43:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.90.103.6 with HTTP; Tue, 23 Oct 2007 07:43:19 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <5cf132c0710230743u679ccf37r49cb8e3f063ba157@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 09:43:19 -0500 From: "Mark Steitle" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Cooling Update - Lancair ES/20B In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_909_11168989.1193150599391" References: ------=_Part_909_11168989.1193150599391 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Bill, Oil temp is measured as oil enters the engine at the filter pad. Water temp is measured at the thermostat housing as the coolant leaves the engine. (I had also been measuring the oil temps leaving the engine and would see 225 - 250*F. I had to remove this sensor when I installed the oil/water exchanger.) Prior to this change, in a slow cruise (5200 rpm), water temps had been as low as 140-150. So, it brought the water temps up by about 25 - 35*F. I have a pretty large radiator. I'm hoping that I will be able to remove the oil/air cooler and block off that inlet. This should bring the oil temps more in line with the water temps. Also, this would reduce the pressure inside the cowl thereby improving the airflow through the water radiator, and increase the efficiency of the system in the process. We'll see. Mark On 10/23/07, Bill Schertz wrote: > > Mark, > Interesting data, to help me understand it better \: > > 1. Oil flow from engine to oil/water cooler to oil/air cooler to engine? > where is the temperature measured? > 2. Where is water temp measured? > 3. What was water temp under similar conditions prior to the change? > > Bill Schertz > KIS Cruiser #4045 > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Mark Steitle > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Sent:* Tuesday, October 23, 2007 8:00 AM > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Cooling Update - Lancair ES/20B > > > OK, I was going to wait to discuss this at the fly-in, but I was chastized > for keeping this to myself, so here goes. > > My 3-rotor Lancair ES has had excessive oil temps of 225 - 235*F (in > climb) since first flight. Opening the cowl exit area helped enough to get > me in the air for more than a lap around the pattern, but I was > climb-limited to about 500fpm. I was anticipating better performance once > the Texas summer heat subsided, but that just didn't happen this year (temps > in the high 80's just last weekend). So, I decided to try an oil/water heat > exchanger. I found a NASCAR Fluidyne unit on ebay and managed to "win" the > bid. It required that I do major surgery to the cooling system, including > relocating some items on the firewall to make room for the new heat > exchanger. I finished it up Sunday afternoon and did a couple of ground > runs and things looked promising (it didn't leak). So, I decided to go for > a short test flight. > > I set the M/T constant speed prop to 2300 rpm, which will give me takeoff > rpm in the mid to upper 6K range. OAT was about 88*F. I accelerated and > where I would normally have to throttle back to keep temps under 230*F, the > temps were in the 180* range. So, I kept the power on, climbing like I have > never climbed before (1400 fpm). This is a 4-place, 2100# empty airplane. > I kept it WOT until I reached 2000 msl (1500agl) and then noticed that I > forgot to retract the 10* flaps used for takeoff. So, I cruised around at > 2500 - 3000 msl and water temp was 170 - 177*F, oil temps were 160 - 165*F. > Before this mod, my oil temps would normally be approx. 185 - 190*F in > cruise. Needless to say, I was very happy. > > The difference in my oil/water arrangement is that I tapped the water pump > with a 1/2" line just before it enters the front side housing and I use this > "cool" water to supply the water to the oil/water exchanger. I return the > heated water to the engine discharge leading to the radiator. I felt this > would still provide sufficient coolant flow through the engine as some guys > are running the smaller 13B pump on their 3-rotor engines without a > problem. The 20B water pump impeller is 1/4" larger diameter. From my > initial flight, it seems that there is plenty of coolant flow to keep the > engine cool. > > It is really too early to tell for certain, but things look very > promising. I will try and take some pictures to bring with me to the Rotary > Fly-In. > > Finally, to give credit where credit is due, I am told that Leon (from > down under) has been using this design for years with great success. I > thank Leon for sharing his racer tricks with the group. > > Mark S. > > ------=_Part_909_11168989.1193150599391 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline
Bill,
 
Oil temp is measured as oil enters the engine at the filter pad. = Water temp is measured at the thermostat housing as the coolant leaves the= engine.  (I had also been measuring the oil temps leaving the engine = and would see 225 - 250*F.  I had to remove this sensor when I install= ed the oil/water exchanger.) =20
 
Prior to this change, in a slow cruise (5200 rpm), water temps had bee= n as low as 140-150.  So, it brought the water temps up by about 25 - = 35*F.  I have a pretty large radiator. 
 
I'm hoping that I will be able to remove the oil/air coo= ler and block off that inlet.  This should bring the oil temps more in= line with the water temps.  Also, this would reduce the pressure insi= de the cowl thereby improving the airflow through the water radiator, and i= ncrease the efficiency of the system in the process.  We'= ;ll see. =20

Mark
 
 
On 10/23/07, Bill Schertz <wschertz@comc= ast.net> wrote:
Mark,
Interesting data, to help me understan= d it better \:
 
1. Oil flow from engine to oil/water c= ooler to oil/air cooler to engine? where is the temperature measured?
2. Where is water temp measured?
3. What was water temp under similar c= onditions prior to the change?
 
Bill Schertz
KIS Cruiser #4045
----- Original Message -----
From: Mark Steitle=
Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 8:00= AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Cooling Update = - Lancair ES/20B

 
OK, I was going to wait to discuss this at the fly-in,= but I was chastized for keeping this to myself, so here goes.

My 3= -rotor Lancair ES has had excessive oil temps of 225 - 235*F (in climb) sin= ce first flight.  Opening the cowl exit area helped enough to get me i= n the air for more than a lap around the pattern, but I was climb-limited t= o about 500fpm.  I was anticipating better performance once the Texas = summer heat subsided, but that just didn't happen this year (temps in t= he high 80's just last weekend).  So, I decided to try an oil/wate= r heat exchanger.  I found a NASCAR Fluidyne unit on ebay and managed = to "win" the bid.  It required that I do major surgery to th= e cooling system, including relocating some items on the firewall to make r= oom for the new heat exchanger.  I finished it up Sunday afternoon and= did a couple of ground runs and things looked promising (it didn't lea= k).  So, I decided to go for a short test flight. =20

I set the  M/T constant speed prop to 2300 rpm, which will giv= e me takeoff rpm in the mid to upper 6K range.  OAT was about 88*F.&nb= sp; I accelerated and where I would normally have to throttle back to keep = temps under 230*F, the temps were in the 180* range.  So, I kept the p= ower on, climbing like I have never climbed before (1400 fpm).  This i= s a 4-place, 2100# empty airplane.  I kept it WOT until I reached 2000= msl (1500agl) and then noticed that I forgot to retract the 10* flaps used= for takeoff. So, I cruised around at 2500 - 3000 msl and water temp was 17= 0 - 177*F, oil temps were 160 - 165*F.  Before this mod, my oil temps = would normally be approx. 185 - 190*F in cruise.  Needless to say, I w= as very happy. =20

The difference in my oil/water arrangement is that I tapped the wat= er pump with a 1/2" line just before it enters the front side housing = and I use this "cool" water to supply the water to the oil/water = exchanger.  I return the heated water to the engine discharge leading = to the radiator.  I felt this would still provide sufficient coolant f= low through the engine as some guys are running the smaller 13B pump on the= ir 3-rotor engines without a problem.  The 20B water pump impeller is = 1/4" larger diameter.  From my initial flight, it seems that= there is plenty of coolant flow to keep the engine cool.=20

It is really too early to tell for certain, but things look very pr= omising.  I will try and take some pictures to bring with me to the Ro= tary Fly-In. 

Finally, to give credit where credit is due, I a= m told that Leon (from down under) has been using this design for years wit= h great success.  I thank Leon for sharing his racer tricks with the g= roup. =20

Mark S.

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