X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from imo-m24.mx.aol.com ([64.12.137.5] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.1.12) with ESMTP id 2366194 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 03 Oct 2007 10:29:05 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.12.137.5; envelope-from=Lehanover@aol.com Received: from Lehanover@aol.com by imo-m24.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v38_r9.2.) id q.c18.1dbcdbd3 (41809) for ; Wed, 3 Oct 2007 10:28:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Lehanover@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 10:28:17 EDT Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Coolant Water Pressure To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1191421697" X-Mailer: 9.0 Security Edition for Windows sub 5378 X-Spam-Flag: NO -------------------------------1191421697 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en =20 In a message dated 10/3/2007 9:08:53 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, =20 bbradburry@bellsouth.net writes: I think that I would see air under the radiator cap if I had a compression=20 gas leak? I never see any air. =20 To check a piston engine for head gasket leaks, you would put the cylinder=20 at TDC and pressurize the cylinder to about 150 lbs with compressed air and= =20 check the radiator for air bubbles=E2=80=A6How do you check a rotary?=20 I will check the pressure sender against a mechanical gage. =20 There is obviously a heating problem, but I think the pressure is higher=20 than it should be until just ready to boil. I shut the engine off at 210*,= and=20 at 22+ lbs, the boiling point should be well above 250*??=20 Thanks for the suggestions of where to look, guys=E2=80=A6=20 Bill B It is extremely difficult to remove all of the air from a rotary engines =20 cooling system. It is also extremely important. If air is under the pressure= cap =20 in a static situation, it will remix with other coolant when the engine is a= t=20 speed. The coolant moves very quickly through the system. The coolant volum= e=20 appears to increase slightly because much of the air is reintroduced into=20 the water. This coolant then becomes a poor conductor of heat. You need the= =20 anti foaming agent in Antifreeze. Just a bit, perhaps 10%. The system with=20= the=20 relief cap right on the radiator or filler point, starts to offload coolant= as=20 soon as the engine is started. It is in hydraulic lock, and has a small=20 volume. The actual boiling point calculated for this coolant makes no diffe= rence=20 at all. The cap opens a bit when the trip pressure is attained, the pressur= e=20 drops to 22 PSI or whatever for your cap, and a bit more heating trips the=20 cap again. It is exactly the same as most cars. So, at first in each heat cycle, there may be no correlation between coolan= t=20 temperature, and the actual amount of coolant dumped by the cap. This is =20 only true closer to a constant operating temperature. And then pressure may=20= be =20 alarmingly unstable with power changes. The accumulator system makes pressur= e =20 rock solid.=20 =20 =20 Make the pressure cap into a filler cap, sealing only the top lip of the =20 radiator or filling port. Connect only a bleed hose and run it to the bott= om of=20 a recovery bottle, and put the pressure relief cap on that bottle. Keep the= =20 bottle about 1/3 full. Note after several heat cycles, the amount of water=20 you need to add to keep that bottle 1/3 full is reduced each time. Once all= of=20 the air is out of the cooling system, no more coolant need be added to the=20 bottle.=20 =20 Heating and cooling of the system, makes sweeping changes in coolant volume= .=20 The air cushion in the bottle acts as an accumulator (used in thousands of=20 aircraft) to maintain a constant pressure and coolant supply. =20 Race cars use a Rolairtrol or spin bottle in the hose from the top of the =20 engine to the radiator. Water enters the bottle at about half height on a =20 tangent and adds a spinning motion. Water leaves through a center hole at th= e =20 bottom.=20 Trapped air pops to the top of the bottle and that is plumbed to the bottom=20= =20 of the accumulator as above.=20 You used to get the plans for this thing when you buy a Cosworth race =20 engine. Does Cosworth know something you don't?=20 =20 Anyway, after about three heat cycles (operating temperature and back to =20 room temperature) the coolant system will be solid coolant with all of the a= ir =20 removed. It will not be hydraulically locked against the cap. It will have the relief cap pressure, and will hold that for as long as the=20= =20 engine is hot.=20 =20 I have a Shrader valve installed in my accumulator tank, and before I start=20= =20 the engine I charge that bottle with compressed air until the cap relieves a= t=20 22 PSI. Now I know it has pressure, and I know it has 22 PSI. =20 This was the stock system on all Mazda cars in the 70s. I didn't invent it.=20 =20 It is unlikely that you have leaking compression seals, unless there is =20 coolant blowing out of your makeup tank, or coolant is running out of your =20 exhaust system after shutdown.=20 =20 My recovery bottle is mounted where the passenger foot well would have been= .=20 Even with the bottom of the engine. So long as the hose ID is less than 1/4= "=20 and the hose enters the bottle on the bottom of the coolant supply, it =20 matters not at all where that bottle is located. There is a money back guara= ntee =20 with this system.=20 =20 Lynn E. Hanover=20 ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com -------------------------------1191421697 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en
In a message dated 10/3/2007 9:08:53 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,=20 bbradburry@bellsouth.net writes:
<= FONT=20 style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=3DArial color=3D#000080 size= =3D2>

I think that I=20= would=20 see air under the radiator cap if I had a compression gas leak?  I ne= ver=20 see any air.

To check a pist= on=20 engine for head gasket leaks, you would put the cylinder at TDC and pressu= rize=20 the cylinder to about 150 lbs with compressed air and check the radiator f= or=20 air bubbles=E2=80=A6How do you check a rotary?

I will check th= e=20 pressure sender against a mechanical gage.  =

There is obviou= sly a=20 heating problem, but I think the pressure is higher than it should be unti= l=20 just ready to boil.  I shut the engine off at 210*, and at 22+ lbs, t= he=20 boiling point should be well above 250*??

 

Thanks for the=20 suggestions of where to look, guys=E2=80=A6

 

Bill=20 B

It is extremely difficult to remove all of the air from a rotary engine= s=20 cooling system. It is also extremely important. If air is under the pressure= cap=20 in a static situation, it will remix with other coolant when the engine is a= t=20 speed. The coolant moves very quickly through the system. The coolant volume= =20 appears to increase slightly because much of the air is reintroduced into th= e=20 water. This coolant then becomes a poor conductor of heat. You need the anti= =20 foaming agent in Antifreeze. Just a bit, perhaps 10%. The system with the re= lief=20 cap right on the radiator or filler point, starts to offload coolant as soon= as=20 the engine is started. It is in hydraulic lock, and has a small volume. The=20 actual boiling point calculated for this coolant makes no difference at all.= The=20 cap opens a bit when the trip pressure is attained, the pressure drops to 22= PSI=20 or whatever for your cap, and a bit more heating trips the cap again. It is=20 exactly the same as most cars.
So, at first in each heat cycle, there may be no correlation between=20 coolant temperature, and the actual amount of coolant dumped by the cap. Thi= s is=20 only true closer to a constant operating temperature. And then pressure may=20= be=20 alarmingly unstable with power changes. The accumulator system makes pressur= e=20 rock solid. 
 
 
Make the pressure cap into a filler cap, sealing only the top lip of th= e=20 radiator or filling port. Connect only a  bleed hose and run it to= the=20 bottom of a recovery bottle, and put the pressure relief cap on that bottle.= =20 Keep the bottle about 1/3 full. Note after several heat cycles, the amount o= f=20 water you need to add to keep that bottle 1/3 full is reduced each time. Onc= e=20 all of the air is out of the cooling system, no more coolant need be added t= o=20 the bottle.
 
Heating and cooling of the system, makes sweeping changes in coolant=20 volume. The air cushion in the bottle acts as an accumulator (used in thousa= nds=20 of aircraft) to maintain a constant pressure and coolant supply.
 
Race cars use a Rolairtrol or spin bottle in the hose from the top of t= he=20 engine to the radiator. Water enters the bottle at about half height on a=20 tangent and adds a spinning motion. Water leaves through a center hole at th= e=20 bottom.
Trapped air pops to the top of the bottle and that is plumbed to the bo= ttom=20 of the accumulator as above.
You used to get the plans for this thing when you buy a Cosworth race=20 engine. Does Cosworth know something you don't? 
 
Anyway, after about three heat cycles (operating temperature and back t= o=20 room temperature) the coolant system will be solid coolant with all of the a= ir=20 removed. It will not be hydraulically locked against the cap.
It will have the relief cap pressure, and will hold that for as long as= the=20 engine is hot.
 
I have a Shrader valve installed in my accumulator tank, and before I s= tart=20 the engine I charge that bottle with compressed air until the cap relieves a= t 22=20 PSI. Now I know it has pressure, and I know it has 22 PSI.
 
This was the stock system on all Mazda cars in the 70s. I didn't invent= it.=20
 
It is unlikely that you have leaking compression seals, unless there is= =20 coolant blowing out of your makeup tank, or coolant is running out of your=20 exhaust system after shutdown.
 
My recovery bottle is mounted where the passenger foot well would have=20 been. Even with the bottom of the engine. So long as the hose ID is less tha= n=20 1/4" and the hose enters the bottle on the bottom of the coolant supply, it=20 matters not at all where that bottle is located. There is a money back guara= ntee=20 with this system. 
 
Lynn E. Hanover 



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