X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from an-out-0708.google.com ([209.85.132.243] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.1.12) with ESMTP id 2352906 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 26 Sep 2007 11:03:57 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.132.243; envelope-from=rwstracy@gmail.com Received: by an-out-0708.google.com with SMTP id b2so305125ana for ; Wed, 26 Sep 2007 08:03:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; bh=fXtKm9fGb91E7SXKh4oZPuk9wx3PiLwTE5L29hTEn8Y=; b=YFxENFY+ysXOn8Dp6nCQSoFp/jBoO4J2Zokj35yg8A/u/Tt9s7gsxcyA+Hp4hFXsGOYXglOgTnCr4731MBo2CqSBxSDd58ENa+FMXfiHoYQgOHZZFFqN1IU6namhA+5YK47DIqER2wHBpvudNx4JSXW+agAY1MzSsHL+ZiNsnSM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=O0aAPy6NCqnowOLwFgO+hOLSRE6lAZXe1mQliJJLza5thSBrd2+lsTIwWcZZjq6b4VevTVtC8OpHzJgqy6VRNHAx82rG9hVSIaRg5iXQYxzL7GODJAC/1Or8eoFloecicbODJWf6xUHZvQC/kY5Tr3pmJeo47zdRbwAnGgd7xm4= Received: by 10.142.217.17 with SMTP id p17mr701056wfg.1190818998144; Wed, 26 Sep 2007 08:03:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.143.28.1 with HTTP; Wed, 26 Sep 2007 08:03:18 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <1b4b137c0709260803k4f1921a7j60956c4012230f6d@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 11:03:18 -0400 From: "Tracy Crook" Sender: rwstracy@gmail.com To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: One for the smart guys In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_8084_2812430.1190818998137" References: X-Google-Sender-Auth: 0a64b2f2decbc76f ------=_Part_8084_2812430.1190818998137 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Glad you didn't Mark! I didn't run into this problem due to my obsession with weight. That was the only reason I made an aluminum mounting bracket for mine. Never would have guessed that steel would be a problem. Tracy On 9/17/07, Mark Steitle wrote: > > Bill, > > I don't seldom give up on a problem, but I came awfully close this time. > > Mark > > On 9/17/07, wrjjrs@aol.com wrote: > > > > Sure can't Mark, > > I wasn't trying to impugn the RX-8 parts either. There are always a few > > idiosyncrasies with any part set. I have seen parts not function proper= ly > > because they put out too strong a signal. On some of the older magneto = CDI 2 > > cycles I worked on the eletronic advance wouldn't work because the thyr= istor > > trigger was always getting too strong a pulse. (A single wave rectified > > device) The solution was simple we doubled the gap which got the voltag= e to > > the thyristor trigger back in the correct range. we then got 25=B0 of a= dvance > > instead of 5=B0. The moral is to never give up, and keep a record of wh= at you > > have done so you don't cover the same ground twice. That is unless you = want > > to to verify the trouble. You then hope it's repeatable! > > Bill Jepson > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Mark Steitle > > To: Rotary motors in aircraft > > Sent: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 1:27 pm > > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: One for the smart guys > > > > > > Bill, > > I have not heard of any problems with the Renesis CAS in the RX-8's. > > I'm not sure this qualifies as having a smaller signal. We measured > > approx. 30 volts at higher rpm. My engine has been running great ever = since > > I replaced the CAS bracket. I got my trigger wheel through Bob Mears, = but > > had to buy the whole assembly (hub, pulley and trigger wheel). But Bob= 's > > price was very reasonable, and he even delivered it to my hangar. You = can't > > beat that kind of service with a stick. > > > > Mark > > > > > > On 9/17/07, wrjjrs@aol.com < wrjjrs@aol.com> wrote: > > > > > > Mark, I'm building a 20B also so I was interested in your problem. Th= e > > > renesis CAS uses the small magnet/reluctor system right? We had many = of this > > > style on the motorcycles, and they were more problematic than the mov= ing > > > magnet type. Probably due to a smaller signal output. One of the syst= ems > > > that has been discussed here before, (the old mopar EI) had a bunch o= f metal > > > plates close by. They must have used a stronger magnet! > > > Bill Jepson > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Mark Steitle > > > To: Rotary motors in aircraft < flyrotary@lancaironline.net> > > > Sent: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 10:07 am > > > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: One for the smart guys > > > > > > > > > Bob, > > > I tried to reply twice to your message but the list server didn't lik= e > > > the attachment. So, I'll try to explain it here. > > > > > > I got a hint from the shop manual, in the section on ignition where i= t > > > talks about small filings of ferrous metal powder adhering to the CAS= and > > > causing problems with engine control. Sounded like it could apply to= a big > > > ferrous metal bracket too. In the end it was just a hunch that paid = off big > > > time. So, the moral of the story is to keep ferrous metals away from= the > > > CAS. > > > > > > Mark > > > > > > On 9/17/07, bmears9413@aol.com < bmears9413@aol.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > I would like to know how you figured it out? thats a tough find. > > > > > > > > Bob Mears > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 9/17/07, Richard Sohn wrote: > > > > > > > > Bob, > > > > > > > > you can not really meassure it, unless you use a setup intensionall= y > > > > looking for this particular issue. Even than, you can only compare = it to > > > > some other setup. I have gone throu quite a bit of that using my ow= n > > > > designed trigger finger for the single rotor, using a pickup coil f= rom the > > > > Mazda distributor and the Renensis CAS. On the first design, the en= d was at > > > > 4500RPM. > > > > The problem is the flux change rate, which is getting more critical > > > > at high RPM. > > > > The safest approach is to have a hard look at the stock installatio= n > > > > and copy that as much a possible. Do not get closer with any ferri= tic metal > > > > than in the stock installation. > > > > I should have caught Marks problem, but I was under the impression > > > > he was using stock installation. > > > > The setup I am using on the single rotor is tested up to 8k with no > > > > problem. > > > > FWIW. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > *From:* bmears9413@aol.com > > > > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > > > > *Sent:* Monday, September 17, 2007 9:36 AM > > > > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: One for the smart guys > > > > > > > > > > > > I would like to know how you figured it out? thats a tough find. > > > > > > > > Bob Mears > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Mark Steitle > > > > To: Rotary motors in aircraft < flyrotary@lancaironline.net> > > > > Sent: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 7:23 pm > > > > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: One for the smart guys > > > > > > > > > > > > Dennis, > > > > > > > > Nope, part of the conversion was to install the stock Renesis timin= g > > > > gear. The problem has been fixed and the Renesis gear is still the= re. Just > > > > in case you're wondering, the timing gear wasn't installed backward= s nor was > > > > it clocked incorrectly. > > > > > > > > Mark > > > > > > > > On 9/15/07, Dennis Haverlah wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Mark, > > > > > Was the frequency of the teeth going by the wheel too high for > > > > > the CAS? > > > > > > > > > > Dennis H. > > > > > > > > > > Mark Steitle wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Bob, > > > > > > > > > > While good things to check, neither of these were the cause of my > > > > > problem. At Tracy's suggestion, I changed the air gap on the CAS= to no > > > > > avail. > > > > > > > > > > Mark > > > > > > > > > > On 9/15/07, bmears9413@aol.com < bmears9413@aol.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > I haven't cheated and looked at the manual.....since your gonna > > > > > > tell us anyway...eventually...but problems I've had before in r= ace > > > > > > cars...plug wires running parallel to each other, and too large= of air gap > > > > > > in the pickup in the distributor. Close??? > > > > > > > > > > > > Bob Mears > > > > > > Supermarine Spitfire > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > From: Mark Steitle > > > > > > To: Rotary motors in aircraft > > > > > > Sent: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 7:53 am > > > > > > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: One for the smart guys > > > > > > > > > > > > Ed, > > > > > > You are getting closer when you stated that it must be erratic > > > > > > ignition. (I wish I had someone to give me hints). Yes, the i= gnition > > > > > > timing was too far advanced, but retarding the timing didn't co= rrect the > > > > > > problem. The coils are LS1 units, 6 ea, so any individual coil= isn't firing > > > > > > any more often than on a 2-rotor. So, what's causing the errat= ic ingition? > > > > > > That's the question. > > > > > > > > > > > > Mark > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 9/15/07, Ed Anderson wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hey, No Fair! Mark. Most of us do not have a Renesis shop > > > > > > > manual. But, lets see the old CS had three wires, the new on= e has two wires > > > > > > > - I get it - there is a wire missing {:>). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So it sounds like the problem was indeed ignition - well, > > > > > > > its almost always either fuel or spark causing a problem. So= if fuel is > > > > > > > more or less ruled out it defaults to ignition. It probably = wouldn't be a > > > > > > > rev limiter as they simply cut out above a certain rpm. So e= ither your > > > > > > > ignition timing somehow was off at higher rpm (too much advan= ce?) or else > > > > > > > your ignition was erratic in its firing (such as exceeding th= e capability of > > > > > > > the coils to recharge between firings - unlikely in this case= ). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But, without a shop manual to give me more insight, I must sa= y > > > > > > > I'm out of ideas. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ed > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > *From:* Mark Steitle > > > > > > > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > > > > > > > *Sent:* Friday, September 14, 2007 10:52 PM > > > > > > > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: One for the smart guys > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now Rusty!!! That's too obvious. ;-) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > OK, another hint... I got a hint of what might be causing my > > > > > > > problem from the ignition section of the Renesis shop manual. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mark > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 9/14/07, Russell Duffy wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > OK, I'll give you a hint... it was related to my decision > > > > > > > > to change over from the original CAS to the Renesis CAS. I= got that bright > > > > > > > > idea from last year's rotary get together at Tracy's. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I've got it. YOU were the problem :-) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Rusty > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > > Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL > > > > > > Mail > > > > > > ! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mai= l > > > > ! > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > > > Version: 7.5.487 / Virus Database: 269.13.21/1012 - Release Date: > > > > 9/16/2007 6:32 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail<= http://o.aolcdn.com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/mailtour/aol/en-us/index.htm?ncid= =3DAOLAOF00020000000970> > > > ! > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail > > ! > > > > > > ------=_Part_8084_2812430.1190818998137 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline
Glad you didn't Mark!
 
I didn't run into this problem due to my obsession with weight.&nb= sp; That was the only reason I made an aluminum mounting bracket for m= ine.  Never would have guessed that steel would be a problem.
 
Tracy 

 
On 9/17/07, = Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.c= om> wrote:
Bill,

I don't seldom = give up on a problem, but I came awfully close this time.=20


Mark

On 9/17/07, = wrjjrs@aol.com < wrjjrs@aol.com> wrote:=20
Sure can't Mark,
I wasn't trying to impugn the RX-8 parts either. There are always = a few idiosyncrasies with any part set. I have seen parts not function= properly because they put out too strong a signal. On some of the older ma= gneto CDI 2 cycles I worked on the eletronic advance wouldn't work= because the thyristor trigger was always getting too strong a pulse. (A si= ngle wave rectified device) The solution was simple we doubled the gap whic= h got the voltage to the thyristor trigger back in the correct range. we th= en got 25=B0 of advance instead of 5=B0. The moral is to never give up, and= keep a record of what you have done so you don't cover the same ground= twice. That is unless you want to to verify the trouble. You then hope it&= #39;s repeatable!=20
Bill Jepson   


-----Original Message-----
= From: Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail= .com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft < flyrotary@lancaironline.net<= /a>>
Sent: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 1:27 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: One f= or the smart guys

 
Bill,
I have not heard of any problems with the Renesis CAS in the RX-8'= s.  I'm not sure this qualifies as having a smaller signal.  = We measured approx. 30 volts at higher rpm.  My engine has been r= unning great ever since I replaced the CAS bracket.  I got my trigger = wheel through Bob Mears, but had to buy the whole assembly (hub, pulley and= trigger wheel).  But Bob's price was very reasonable, and he even= delivered it to my hangar.  You can't beat that kind of service w= ith a stick.=20
 
Mark

 
On 9/17/07, = wrjjrs@aol.com < wrjjrs@aol.com> wrote:=20
Mark, I'm buildi= ng a 20B also so I was interested in your problem. The renesis CAS uses the= small magnet/reluctor system right? We had many of this style on the motor= cycles, and they were more problematic than the moving magnet type. Probabl= y due to a smaller signal output. One of the systems that has been discusse= d here before, (the old mopar EI) had a bunch of metal plates close by. The= y must have used a stronger magnet!=20
Bill Jepson


-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Steitle= <msteitle@gmail.com>
To= : Rotary motors in aircraft <=20 flyrotary@lancaironline.net<= /a>>
Sent: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 10:07 am
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: One = for the smart guys=20

 
Bob,
On 9/17/07, = Richard Sohn <unicorn@gdsys.net= > wrote:=20
Bob,
 
you can not really meassure it, unless= you use a setup intensionally looking for this particular issue. Even than= , you can only compare it to some other setup. I have gone throu quite a bi= t of that using my own designed trigger finger for the single rotor, using = a pickup coil from the Mazda distributor and the Renensis CAS. On the first= design, the end was at 4500RPM.=20
The problem is the flux change rate, w= hich is getting more critical at high RPM.
The safest approach is to have a hard = look at the stock installation and copy that as much a possible. Do not get= closer  with any ferritic metal than in the stock installation.
I should have caught Marks problem, bu= t I was under the impression he was using stock installation.
The setup I am using on the single rot= or is tested up to 8k with no problem.
FWIW.
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, September 17, 2007 9:36 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: One for the smart guys

 
I would like to know how you figured it out? thats a tough find.
 
Bob Mears


-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Steitle = <msteitle@gmail.com>
To:= Rotary motors in aircraft <=20 flyrotary@lancaironline.net<= /a>>
Sent: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 7:23 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: One f= or the smart guys=20

 
Dennis,

Nope, part of the conversion was to install the stock = Renesis timing gear.  The problem has been fixed and the Renesis gear = is still there.  Just in case you're wondering, the timing gear wa= sn't installed backwards nor was it clocked incorrectly.  =20

Mark

On 9/15/07, = Dennis Haverlah <cloudus= ter@austin.rr.com=20 > wrote:=20
Mark,
 Was the frequency = of the teeth going by the wheel too high for the CAS?

Dennis H.
<= br>Mark Steitle wrote:
Bob,
While good things to check, neither of these were the cause of my pro= blem.  At Tracy's suggestion, I changed the air gap on the CAS to = no avail. =20

Mark

On 9/15/07, = bmears9413@aol.com < bmears9413@aol.com> wrote:=20
I haven't cheate= d and looked at the manual.....since your gonna tell us anyway...eventually= ...but problems I've had before in race cars...plug wires running paral= lel to each other, and too large of air gap in the pickup in the distributo= r.   Close???=20

Bob Mears
Supermarine Spitfire


-----Original Message-= ----
From: Mark Steitle <msteit= le@gmail.com=20 >
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sat, 15 Sep = 2007 7:53 am=20
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: One for the smart guys

Ed,
You are getting closer when you stated that it must be erratic ignitio= n.  (I wish I had someone to give me hints).  Yes, the ignition t= iming was too far advanced, but retarding the timing didn't correct the= problem.  The coils are LS1 units, 6 ea, so any individual coil = isn't firing any more often than on a 2-rotor.  So, what'= s causing the erratic ingition?  That's the question.=20
 
Mark

 
On 9/15/07, = Ed Anderson <eanderson@= carolina.rr.com=20 > wrote:=20
Hey, No Fair! Mark.   Most of us d= o not have a Renesis shop manual.  But, lets see the old CS had three = wires, the new one has two wires - I get it - there is a wire missing {:>= ;).
 
  So it sounds like the problem was &nb= sp;indeed ignition - well, its almost always either fuel or spark causing a= problem.  So if fuel is more or less ruled out it defaults to ignitio= n.  It probably wouldn't be a rev limiter as they simply cut out a= bove a certain rpm.  So either your ignition timing somehow was off at= higher rpm (too much advance?)  or else your ignition was erratic in = its firing (such as exceeding the capability of the coils to recharge betwe= en firings - unlikely in this case).=20
 
But, without a shop manual to give me more insigh= t, I must say I'm out of ideas.
 
Ed
 
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, September 14, 2007 10:52 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: One for the smart guys

 
Now Rusty!!!  That's too obvious.  ;-)
 
OK, another hint... I got a hint of what might be causing my problem f= rom the ignition section of the Renesis shop manual. 
 
Mark

 
On 9/14/07, = Russell Duffy <rusty@radrotar= y.com=20 > wrote:=20
OK, I'll give you a hint... it was related to my decision to = change over from the original CAS to the Renesis CAS.  I got that= bright idea from last year's rotary get together at Tracy's. =    
 
I've got it.  YO= U were the problem :-) 
 
Rusty


&nb= sp;
Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail!
 


 
Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail!
 
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free = Edition.
Version: 7.5.487 / Virus Database: 269.13.21/1012 - Release Da= te: 9/16/2007 6:32 PM

 
Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail!
 

 
Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail!
 


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