Return-Path: Received: from [65.23.108.33] (HELO mail.tsisp.com) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.1.5) with ESMTP-TLS id 2632649 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 11 Oct 2003 07:56:15 -0400 Received: from stevehome ([]) by mail.tsisp.com (Technical Support Inc.) with ASMTP id BGA74184 for ; Sat, 11 Oct 2003 07:56:13 -0400 From: "Steve Brooks" To: "'Rotary motors in aircraft'" Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] New Turbo Rotary Spreadsheet Calculator Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 08:01:35 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_003A_01C38FCD.E4D75210" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 11.0.4920 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 In-Reply-To: Thread-Index: AcOPq2JtMM5xmXchRiST2GW9aUzQjgAQ+cvw Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003A_01C38FCD.E4D75210 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ed, I don't see any attachment. I would really like to see that = spreadsheet. Can you please forward me a copy ? =20 Thanks, Steve Brooks _____ =20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Ed Anderson Sent: Friday, October 10, 2003 11:54 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Due to overwhelming popular demand.... Ok, Ok, at least one person requested it. I have now created a spreadsheet where you can run NA or = with a turbo charger. The HP, fuel burn and BTUs should work out pretty good = and even the cooling section. The tubo model does take into account the = less dense air after compression since that affects power. But there is NO = turbo modeling done. I used 65% efficiency for the compressor efficiency = which may be a bit on the low side, but is conservative. =20 The cooling section now permits you to specify a different radiator size than the Gm cores. However, the oil cooler is still an RX-7 oil cooler, = but you can select more than one. Again this simple cooling model is based = on airflow caused by airspeed as constrained by the surface are of the radiators you specify. It does not taken into consideration lessening = delta T due to radiator thickenss or the decreased pressure across the = radiator either. But, it gave me close to the actual results I see when I fly - inadequate cooling during take off and intial climb at high power = settings so temps climb, but once I hit around 120 MPH and/or pull back on power = the higher airspeed and lesser power results in adequate cooling during the cruise climb and more than adequate during cruise at alititude. yes, I lower the density of the mass air flow at altitude to try to keep it = fairly realistic. But, thats about it. =20 I will remind everyone that this is not a simulation and while I have = taken a great deal of care into ensuring that the math model for the engine section is as accurate as I can make it, its only a model and not a simulation. That means you CAN input 20 psi boost at 1000 rpm and it = will give you the HP that would create although in real life the exhaust = output at 1000 rpm would probably never come close to giving you 20 psi boost. Soooo, its up to you to input realistic combinations. You know - the garbage in and garbage out thing. =20 =20 Also since there is not a simulated load on the engine, it will given = you what ever rpm you want (don't you wish real life were this easy) - = however, whether a real engine with a real load and real induction and exhaust = system can achieve that rpm is another question. If anyone has a simple math = model that would provide a load figure based on pitch, diameter, number of = blades that would provide the HP/torque required for two modes. Say = Acceleration (take off) and cruise (steady state) I will see if I can adapt the = program to reflect real world prop loads. Lets start with a fix pitch prop = model {:>). Any Propeller experts on the list?? =20 To keep Marv from getting on me about consuming too much of the server = disk space, anyone who wants a copy please send me an email off the list. My email below. =20 Ed Anderson RV-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC HYPERLINK "mailto:eanderson@carolina.rr.com"eanderson@carolina.rr.com --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.524 / Virus Database: 321 - Release Date: 10/6/2003 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_003A_01C38FCD.E4D75210 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Ed,
I=20 don't see any attachment.  I would really like to see that=20 spreadsheet.  Can you please forward me a copy = ?
 
Thanks,
Steve=20 Brooks


From: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Ed=20 Anderson
Sent: Friday, October 10, 2003 11:54 PM
To: = Rotary=20 motors in aircraft

Due to = overwhelming=20  popular demand.... Ok, Ok, at least one person requested it.  = I have=20 now created a spreadsheet where you can run NA or with a turbo = charger. =20 The HP, fuel burn and BTUs should work out pretty good and even the = cooling=20 section.  The tubo model does take into account the less dense air = after=20 compression since that affects power.  But there is NO turbo = modeling=20 done.  I used 65% efficiency for the compressor efficiency which = may be a=20 bit on the low side, but is conservative.
 
The cooling section now permits you to = specify a=20 different radiator size than the Gm cores.  However, the oil cooler = is=20 still an RX-7 oil cooler, but you can select more than one.  Again = this=20 simple cooling model is based on airflow caused by airspeed as = constrained by=20 the surface are of the radiators you specify.  It does not taken = into=20 consideration lessening delta T due to radiator thickenss or the = decreased=20 pressure across the radiator either.  But, it gave me close to the = actual=20 results I see when I fly - inadequate cooling during take off and intial = climb=20 at high power settings so temps climb, but once I hit around 120 MPH = and/or pull=20 back on power the higher airspeed and lesser power results in adequate = cooling=20 during the cruise climb and more than adequate during cruise at = alititude. =20 yes, I lower the density of the mass air flow at altitude to try to keep = it=20 fairly realistic.  But, thats about it.
 
I will remind everyone that this is not = a=20 simulation and while I have taken a great deal of care into ensuring = that the=20 math model for the engine section is as accurate as I can make it, its = only a=20 model and not a simulation.  That means you CAN input 20 psi boost = at 1000=20 rpm and it will give you the HP that would create although in real life = the=20 exhaust output at 1000 rpm would probably never come close to giving you = 20 psi=20 boost. Soooo, its up to you to input realistic combinations.  You = know -=20 the garbage in and garbage out thing. 
 
Also since there is not a simulated = load on the=20 engine, it will given you what ever rpm you want (don't you wish real = life were=20 this easy) - however, whether a real engine with a real load and real = induction=20 and exhaust system can achieve that rpm is another question.  If = anyone has=20 a simple math model that would provide a load figure based on pitch, = diameter,=20 number of blades that would provide the HP/torque required for two = modes. =20 Say Acceleration (take off) and cruise (steady state) I will see if I = can adapt=20 the program to reflect real world prop loads.  Lets start with a = fix pitch=20 prop model {:>).  Any Propeller experts on the=20 list??
 
To keep Marv from getting on me about = consuming too=20 much of the server disk space, anyone who wants a copy please send me an = email=20 off the list.  My email below.
 
Ed Anderson
RV-6A N494BW Rotary=20 Powered
Matthews, NC
eanderson@carolina.rr.com

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