Return-Path: Received: from bewersdorff.com ([192.220.83.90] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.1.5) with SMTP id 2628256 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 08 Oct 2003 02:48:48 -0400 Received: (qmail 87862 invoked by uid 21338); 8 Oct 2003 06:48:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO rapunzel) ([216.101.149.124]) (envelope-sender ) by 192.220.83.90 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 8 Oct 2003 06:48:45 -0000 From: "Marko Bewersdorff" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] More stock turbo blues Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 23:47:51 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0838_01C38D2D.6BC78B30" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Importance: Normal This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0838_01C38D2D.6BC78B30 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0839_01C38D2D.6BCC1F10" ------=_NextPart_001_0839_01C38D2D.6BCC1F10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MessageI live in the state or Arnold, Racingbeat and Mazdatrix (CA), I spoke with Arnold, Jim Mederer owner of Racingbeat - who is flying behind a Lycoming btw., and some folks at Mazdatrix, (o.k. one of the last 3 statements is a artificial statement, I'm serious about rotaries though). A few things I learned, Arnold does not have TFRs around him so he is better than Bush in my book - since I got to fly patternwork in a Citabria while he was here deplaning in San Jose. But back to the more graspable. 1750 degree F or 950ish C is a -continuous- operating temp in a plane --- not in a car though. Metal has temperature-inertia, talk about the heavy turbine housing, it does not heat up enough in a million years - hmm make it 7 years, to loose a lot of material, so in a car no problem for a few years*. Here is a graph of stainless (304 to 347) and Inconel (named altemp 625 here) - better stuff than the stock turbine housing I think. You see stainless 304 at 1800 F is gone mostly after a mere 100 hours. So --- Best turbine housing I could find is stainless, don't know what type, it s used in the Money etc. That knowledge is all courtesy of Turbonetics. So the nice (working) folks at Turbonetics (Garrett, Airresearch, Ray Jay, Allied Signal, are all the same bunch of stockholders now) made me a turbo of mostly Turbonetics parts except for the stainless hot housing. Btw. that housing is rated at 1750 F continuous. So that turbo just came in a few weeks ago for $1415 +-$50 or so. It is good for 160 HP at 25,000 feet. I'm sure you can get one too. Call 'em and ask for Dick Vincent, very helpful guy. 1.30 A/R weighs about 25 lbs and needs a separate wastegate. http://www.roadraceengineering.com/tial.htm The 46 mm seems to be my current price performance leader. $455 Now I'm pondering about the manifold, I think it is down to Inconel 625 sheet (3/8" or 1/4") to build a boxy plenum like manifold with a flange or tubular exit for the wastegate. http://www.hightempmetals.com/hightemp/hitemp06.php4 looks like another $300 for the manifold. ($ 124 per square foot plus $75 misc charges) If I wanted a simple flying plane I would have stayed with my O-200 Vari EZ - but no, I need something to fiddle with and improve upon.... 300 mph Long EZ in the works ;-) greetings Marko * it does not take an engineer to build something that lasts, it takes one to build something that barely lasts. -----Original Message----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net]On Behalf Of Russell Duffy Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2003 7:37 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] More stock turbo blues Greetings, I bet if you looked in the archives, you'd see that I recently said the stock Mazda turbo could take the heat. Well, I'm sorry to say that I no longer believe that. I just dissected a "low mileage" Series 5 turbo, and found that it was crack city inside. Man, there isn't a single area of the high temp side of the housing that doesn't have some sort of crack. All of these are hidden from external view, so the one on my plane now is likely cracked in just the same way. The latest exhaust manifold that I got from Ebay is also cracked, despite the "no cracks" advertisement. Even with the crack, it's way better than the one I currently have installed. Sigh... I have now decided, that the stock turbo is not going to stay on my plane for the rev-2 cowl. The wastegate sucks, and turbo just isn't high enough quality. It's one thing to run around in a car with cracked parts, but not in the plane. What does this mean? Good question. I don't know yet. I don't "need" the turbo, but I "want" it, so I'm going to look into an aftermarket turbo. This one would be properly sized, have a stainless exhaust manifold, and usable wastegate. Why do I do these things to myself... If I come to my senses somewhere along the line, I'll be going NA, and still having more power than I need for an RV-3. I'd have to attend the EDKILL lecture though :-) Rusty (my kingdom for a turbo that isn't cracked!) ------=_NextPart_001_0839_01C38D2D.6BCC1F10 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message

I live=20 in the state or Arnold, Racingbeat and Mazdatrix (CA), I spoke = with=20 Arnold, Jim Mederer owner of Racingbeat - who is flying = behind a=20 Lycoming btw., and some folks at Mazdatrix, (o.k. one of the last 3 = statements is a artificial statement, I'm serious about rotaries = though). A=20 few things I learned, Arnold does not have TFRs around him so he is = better than=20 Bush in my book - since I got to fly patternwork in a Citabria while he = was here=20 deplaning in San Jose. But back to the more graspable. 1750 degree F or = 950ish C=20 is a -continuous- operating temp in a plane --- not in a car = though. Metal=20 has temperature-inertia, talk about the heavy turbine housing, it does = not heat=20 up enough in a million years - hmm make it 7 years, to loose a lot of = material,=20 so in a car no problem for a few years*.

3D""Here is a graph of stainless (304 = to=20 347) and Inconel (named altemp 625 here) - better = stuff than the=20 stock turbine housing I think. You see stainless 304 at 1800 F=20 is gone mostly after a mere 100 hours.

So --- Best turbine housing I could find is = stainless,=20 don't know what type, it s used in the Money etc. That knowledge = is all=20 courtesy of Turbonetics. So the nice=20 (working) folks at Turbonetics (Garrett, Airresearch, Ray Jay, Allied = Signal,=20 are all the same bunch of stockholders now) made me a turbo of mostly=20 Turbonetics parts except for the stainless hot housing. Btw. that = housing is=20 rated at 1750 F continuous.

So that=20 turbo just came in a few weeks ago for $1415 +-$50 or so. It = is good=20 for 160 HP at 25,000 feet. I'm sure you can get one too. Call 'em and = ask for=20 Dick Vincent, very helpful guy. 1.30 A/R weighs about 25 lbs and needs a = separate wastegate. http://www.roadraceengineering.com/tial.htm 

The 46 mm seems to be my = current price=20 performance leader. $455

Now I'm pondering about the manifold, I think = it is=20 down to Inconel 625 sheet (3/8" or 1/4") to build a boxy plenum = like=20 manifold with a flange or tubular exit for the = wastegate.

http://www.hightempmetals.com/hightemp/hitemp06.php4<= FONT=20 face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2> 

looks like another $300 for = the manifold.=20 ($ 124 per square foot plus $75 misc charges)

If I wanted a simple flying = plane I would=20 have stayed with my O-200 Vari EZ - but no, I need something to = fiddle with=20 and improve upon.... 300 mph Long EZ in the works ;-)

 

greetings

Marko

* it does not take an = engineer to build=20 something that lasts, it takes one to build something that barely=20 lasts.

 

 -----Original=20 Message-----
From: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net]On Behalf Of Russell=20 Duffy
Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2003 7:37 PM
To: = Rotary=20 motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] More stock turbo=20 blues

Greetings,
 
I bet if you = looked in=20 the archives, you'd see that I recently said the stock Mazda turbo = could take=20 the heat.  Well, I'm sorry to say that I no longer believe = that. =20
 
I just = dissected a "low=20 mileage" Series 5 turbo, and found that it was crack city = inside.  Man,=20 there isn't a single area of the high temp side of the housing that = doesn't=20 have some sort of crack.  All of these are hidden from external = view, so=20 the one on my plane now is likely cracked in just the same way.  = The=20 latest exhaust manifold that I got from Ebay is also cracked, despite = the "no=20 cracks" advertisement.  Even with the crack, it's way better than = the one=20 I currently have installed.  Sigh...
 
I have now = decided, that=20 the stock turbo is not going to stay on my plane for the rev-2 = cowl.  The=20 wastegate sucks, and turbo just isn't high enough quality.  It's = one=20 thing to run around in a car with cracked parts, but not in the=20 plane.  
 
What does = this=20 mean?  Good question.  I don't know yet.   I = don't=20 "need" the turbo, but I "want" it, so I'm going to look into an = aftermarket=20 turbo.  This one would be properly sized, have a = stainless=20 exhaust manifold, and usable wastegate.  Why do I do = these=20 things to myself...   If I come to my senses somewhere along = the=20 line, I'll be going NA, and still having more power than I need = for an=20 RV-3.   I'd have to attend the EDKILL lecture though=20 :-) 
 
Rusty (my = kingdom for a=20 turbo that isn't = cracked!) 
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