X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from bay0-omc1-s37.bay0.hotmail.com ([65.54.246.109] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.1c.3) with ESMTP id 1368251 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 07 Sep 2006 15:30:19 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=65.54.246.109; envelope-from=lors01@msn.com Received: from hotmail.com ([65.54.250.88]) by bay0-omc1-s37.bay0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 7 Sep 2006 08:42:21 -0700 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 7 Sep 2006 08:42:21 -0700 Message-ID: Received: from 4.171.147.96 by BAY115-DAV16.phx.gbl with DAV; Thu, 07 Sep 2006 15:42:18 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [4.171.147.96] X-Originating-Email: [lors01@msn.com] X-Sender: lors01@msn.com From: "Tracy Crook" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Departed Exhaust Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 11:42:10 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_004B_01C6D272.A782CDF0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: MSN 9 X-MimeOLE: Produced By MSN MimeOLE V9.20.0029.3000 Seal-Send-Time: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 11:42:10 -0400 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 Sep 2006 15:42:21.0516 (UTC) FILETIME=[3523A8C0:01C6D294] Return-Path: lors01@msn.com This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_004B_01C6D272.A782CDF0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I sure hate to hear all this talk of solving problems by building = heavier. Weight is the absolute enemy in an airplane. All my RV-4 exhaust systems were all made from .035" 321 SS (except = for the aftermarket mufflers) and lasted for well over 800 hours. The = home made .035 under cowl muffler worked well (800+ hrs) until I went to = the turbo port rotor housings but the best answer to that problem would = not have been to triple it's weight. Attention to thermal and = mechanical stress and awareness of the shock wave on the turbo rotor = housings is the answer, not brute strength. BTW, welcome home Dave L ! Hope you get to spend some time on that RV = after catching up on the inevitable 'back home' chores. Tracy ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Bulent Aliev=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 10:27 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Departed Exhaust Joe, why are you rebuilding your engine mount? The pipes that cracked = up were 0.049" thick and welded solid. Next ones I will make from 2" =20 and 0.065 material with slip joints. Cast manifold from NA engine and = than single pipe crossed my mind too, but the sucker is very heavy. =20 Again, you have engine mount like mine. Why are you modifying it? Bulent "Buly" Aliev FXE Ft lauderdale, FL http://tinyurl.com/s5xw8 On Sep 6, 2006, at 9:48 PM, Joe Berki wrote: > Buly, > I am glad that you are safe. What dimensions on the exhaust pipes =20 > need to > be changed? I am wondering ir the cast iron exhaust might solve =20 > some of > thes issues. Unfortuntly I will need to modify or build a nes =20 > engne mount. > > Joe Berki > Limo EZ > Canard in primer > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ed Anderson" = > > To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" = > > Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 7:57 AM > Subject: [FlyRotary] Departed Exhaust > > >> Hi Buly, great to hear about your flight and happy to hear the =20 >> missing >> exhaust component did not cause damage - however, I would inspect =20 >> the prop >> blade very closely to make certain no small cracks in blade - =20 >> particularly >> near the hub. >> >> Yes, I have pulverized sufficient metal by trying different = exhaust >> internals to say that the shock of the exhaust pulse particular =20 >> with a > turbo >> block is tremendous. I have destroyed 1/8" thick stainless steel =20 >> in a >> matter of hours. It appears that if a exhaust component is =20 >> perpendicular > to >> the front of the shock wave, the impact on the component is such =20 >> to reduce >> its life to almost nil. If the component is at an angle then its =20 >> life is >> much longer. The constant flexing of the metal at 200 times/sec =20 >> at 6000 > rpm >> caused by the strong exhaust pulse fatigues the metal extremely =20 >> rapidly. >> >> The joke around my airport is "You can hear Ed long before you =20 >> can see >> him!" - my response is that its a safety feature to let others =20 >> know I am > on >> my way inbound{:>). >> >> Ed >> Ed Anderson >> Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered >> Matthews, NC >> eanderson@carolina.rr.com >> = http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Bulent Aliev" = > >> To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" = > >> Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 7:17 AM >> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: OT: Gardenhose as level >> >> >>> Joe, it was a "shake down" alright with an exhaust problem like =20 >>> yours. >>> on Sat we did some takeoffs and landings with the CFI Ron =20 >>> Miller. With >>> gross weight of 1850 pounds, on takeoff I'm getting 6500-7000 =20 >>> rpm and >>> climb rate of about 1000 fpm. Than we went to 1500 ft over the =20 >>> airport >>> and i did some steep turns etc for about 40 min. It flies like a = >>> dream >>> (compared to C-172 :). Transponder did not work again. >>> Next day we got a waiver for the transponder and headed to an old >>> uncontrolled military field with two huge 5000 ft runways, so i = can >>> practice landings and takeoffs. So we took off and headed for our >>> destination at 3500 ft over alligator country. Pulled back the =20 >>> power to >>> 5000 rpm and we were cruising at 140 knots. Nothing spectacular, = >>> but i >>> kept the prop at low pitch to go easy on the engine. 15 min =20 >>> later, we >>> heard a bang and the plane felt like we run over a rock. First =20 >>> reaction >>> look for a place to land. But soon everything checked out and the > engine >>> kept running normal with temps at 185-187F degrees with OAT at = 85F. >>> Landed OK at our destination and taxied to the FBO. Ron got out =20 >>> first > and >>> started looking, but can not find anything wrong? I got out and =20 >>> noticed > a >>> slight scuff like a drag mark 3" wide on one of the Ivo blades =20 >>> starting >>> about where the exhaust would be and going to the tip. The las = oval > piece >>> of my shiny new exhaust was missing. Mystery solved. Ivo is a =20 >>> one tough >>> prop to survive a 3" long 3" diam. SS pipe going hitting the =20 >>> blade. We >>> continued with the training and I was getting good at it but =20 >>> with lots > of >>> full power takeoffs and not enough time for the engine to cool =20 >>> down, > some >>> of the coolant boiled out on takeoff and we came down to replace = >>> to add >>> more coolant and check under the hood. Added some water, cleaned = >>> the >>> plugs, just in case and took off again. >>> By now it was a sweltering heat with jungle like humidity and =20 >>> after few >>> landings, we headed home. The trip was uneventful, the engine was > running >>> fine around 5000 rpm. The biggest surprise later was after I =20 >>> removed > the >>> SS heat shields from around my new exhaust pipes. one pipe was =20 >>> totaly >>> separated at the weld, another was half cracked. >>> Sound familiar Joe:) The exhaust pulses must be ferocious? people = on > the >>> ground said they can hear me long before they can see me coming:) >>> More later. Got to go to work. >>> Bulent "Buly" Aliev >>> FXE Ft lauderdale, FL >>> http://tinyurl.com/s5xw8 >>> >>> On Sep 5, 2006, at 11:47 PM, Joe Hull wrote: >>> >>>> OK - it's supposed to be "Shake down cruise" - don't tell me =20 >>>> you broke >>>> down >>>> somewhere!! >>>> >>>> But congrats on flying it anyway!! >>>> >>>> Joe Hull >>>> Cozy Mk-IV N31CZ (65 hrs - Rotary 13B NA) >>>> Redmond (Seattle), Washington >>>> >>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Rotary motors in aircraft =20 >>>>> [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] > On >>>>> Behalf Of Bulent Aliev >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 8:20 PM >>>>> To: Rotary motors in aircraft >>>>> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: OT: Gardenhose as level >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Guess I need to buy some expensive clear hose ..... >>>>>> Finn >>>>> >>>>> Finn, if you buy the right size, one day you can used for your =20 >>>>> fuel >>>>> lines on the next airplane. Worked very well on the first one :) >>>>> Buly >>>>> Finally checked out in my plane. >>>>> Did my first 100 mile "cross country". Or should I say "break = down >>>>> cruise" :), >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >>>>> Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net/lists/=20 >>>>> flyrotary/ >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >>>> Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/ >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >>> Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/ >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >> Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/ >> >> >> --=20 >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG Free Edition. >> Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.7/436 - Release Date: =20 >> 9/1/2006 >> >> > > > -- > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/ -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/ ------=_NextPart_000_004B_01C6D272.A782CDF0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I sure hate to hear all this talk of solving problems by building=20 heavier.  Weight is the absolute enemy in an airplane.
 
  All my RV-4 exhaust systems were all made from = 035" 321=20 SS (except for the aftermarket mufflers) and lasted for well over = 800=20 hours.  The home made .035 under cowl muffler worked well = (800+=20 hrs) until I went to the turbo port rotor housings but the best = answer to=20 that problem would not have been to triple it's weight.  Attention = to=20 thermal and mechanical stress and awareness of the shock wave on the = turbo rotor=20 housings is the answer, not brute strength.
 
BTW, welcome home Dave L !  Hope you get to spend some time on = that RV=20 after catching up on the inevitable 'back home' chores.
 
Tracy
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Bulent Aliev
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Sent: Wednesday, September 06, = 2006 10:27=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Departed=20 Exhaust

Joe, why are you rebuilding your engine mount? The = pipes that=20 cracked 
up were 0.049" thick and welded solid. Next ones I = will make=20 from 2" 
and 0.065 material with slip joints. Cast manifold = from NA=20 engine and 
than single pipe crossed my mind too, but the = sucker is=20 very heavy. 
Again, you have engine mount like mine. Why are = you=20 modifying it?
Bulent "Buly" Aliev
FXE Ft lauderdale, FL
http://tinyurl.com/s5xw8

On Sep=20 6, 2006, at 9:48 PM, Joe Berki wrote:

> Buly,
> I am = glad that=20 you are safe.  What dimensions on the exhaust pipes  =
> need=20 to
> be changed?  I am wondering ir the cast iron exhaust = might=20 solve 
> some of
> thes issues.  Unfortuntly I = will=20 need to modify or build a nes 
> engne = mount.
>
> Joe=20 Berki
> Limo EZ
> Canard in primer
>
> ----- = Original=20 Message -----
> From: "Ed Anderson" <eanderson@carolina.rr.com&g= t;
>=20 To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
>=20 Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 7:57 AM
> Subject: = [FlyRotary]=20 Departed Exhaust
>
>
>> Hi Buly, great to hear = about your=20 flight and happy to hear the 
>> missing
>> = exhaust=20 component did not cause damage - however, I would inspect  =
>>=20 the prop
>> blade very closely to make certain no small = cracks in=20 blade - 
>> particularly
>> near the=20 hub.
>>
>>  Yes, I have pulverized sufficient = metal by=20 trying different exhaust
>> internals to say that the shock = of the=20 exhaust pulse particular 
>> with a
> = turbo
>>=20 block is tremendous.  I have destroyed 1/8" thick stainless = steel =20
>> in a
>> matter of hours.  It appears that = if a=20 exhaust component is 
>> perpendicular
> = to
>>=20 the front of the shock wave, the impact on the component is such  =
>> to reduce
>> its life to almost nil.  If = the=20 component is at an angle then its 
>> life = is
>> much=20 longer.  The constant flexing of the metal at 200 times/sec  =
>> at 6000
> rpm
>> caused by the strong = exhaust=20 pulse fatigues the metal extremely 
>>=20 rapidly.
>>
>>  The joke around my airport is = "You can=20 hear Ed long before you 
>> can see
>> = him!"  -=20 my response is that its a safety feature to let others  =
>> know=20 I am
> on
>> my way = inbound{:>).
>>
>>=20 Ed
>> Ed Anderson
>> Rv-6A N494BW Rotary = Powered
>>=20 Matthews, NC
>> eanderson@carolina.rr.com>>=20 http:/= /members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW
>>=20 ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Bulent Aliev" <atlasyts@bellsouth.net>
= >>=20 To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
>>=20 Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 7:17 AM
>> Subject: = [FlyRotary]=20 Re: OT: Gardenhose as level
>>
>>
>>> = Joe, it=20 was a "shake down" alright with an exhaust problem like  =
>>>=20 yours.
>>> on Sat we did some takeoffs and landings with = the CFI=20 Ron 
>>> Miller.  With
>>> gross = weight of=20 1850 pounds, on takeoff I'm getting 6500-7000   =
>>> rpm=20 and
>>> climb rate of about 1000 fpm. Than we went to 1500 = ft=20 over  the 
>>> airport
>>> and i = did some=20 steep turns etc for about 40 min. It flies  like a  =
>>>=20 dream
>>> (compared to C-172 :). Transponder did not work=20 again.
>>> Next day we got a waiver for the transponder = and headed=20 to an old
>>> uncontrolled military field with two huge = 5000 ft=20 runways, so i can
>>> practice landings and takeoffs. So = we took=20 off and headed for our
>>> destination at 3500 ft over = alligator=20 country. Pulled back the 
>>> power  = to
>>>=20 5000 rpm and we were cruising at 140 knots. Nothing = spectacular,  =20
>>> but i
>>> kept the prop at low pitch to = go easy=20 on the engine. 15 min   
>>> later,=20 we
>>> heard a bang and the plane felt like we run over a=20 rock.  First 
>>> reaction
>>> look = for a=20 place to land. But soon everything checked  out and the
>=20 engine
>>> kept running normal with temps at 185-187F=20 degrees  with OAT at 85F.
>>> Landed OK at our = destination=20 and taxied to the FBO.  Ron got out 
>>> = first
>=20 and
>>> started looking, but can not find anything  = wrong? I=20 got out and 
>>> noticed
> a
>>> = slight=20 scuff like a drag mark 3" wide  on one of the Ivo blades =20
>>> starting
>>> about where the exhaust = would=20 be  and going to the tip. The las oval
> = piece
>>> of=20 my shiny new exhaust was  missing. Mystery solved. Ivo is a  =
>>> one tough
>>> prop to survive a 3" = long  3"=20 diam. SS pipe going hitting the 
>>> blade. =20 We
>>> continued with the  training and I was getting = good at=20 it but 
>>> with lots
> of
>>> = full=20 power  takeoffs and not enough time for the engine to cool =20
>>> down,
> some
>>> of the  = coolant=20 boiled out on takeoff and we came down to replace  =
>>> to=20 add
>>> more  coolant and check under the hood. Added = some=20 water, cleaned 
>>> the
>>> plugs, just = in case=20 and took off again.
>>> By now it was a sweltering heat = with=20 jungle like humidity and 
>>> after =20 few
>>> landings, we headed home. The trip was uneventful, = the=20 engine was
> running
>>> fine around 5000 rpm. The = biggest=20 surprise later was after I  
>>> = removed
>=20 the
>>> SS heat shields from around my new exhaust pipes.=20 one  pipe was 
>>> totaly
>>> = separated at=20 the weld, another was half cracked.
>>> Sound familiar = Joe:) The=20 exhaust pulses must be ferocious? people on
> = the
>>> ground=20 said they can hear me long before they can see me = coming:)
>>>=20 More later. Got to go to work.
>>> Bulent "Buly"=20 Aliev
>>> FXE Ft lauderdale, FL
>>> http://tinyurl.com/s5xw8
>>= ;>
>>>=20 On Sep 5, 2006, at 11:47 PM, Joe Hull=20 wrote:
>>>
>>>> OK - it's supposed to be = "Shake=20 down cruise" - don't tell me 
>>>> you =20 broke
>>>> down
>>>>=20 somewhere!!
>>>>
>>>> But congrats on = flying it=20 anyway!!
>>>>
>>>> Joe = Hull
>>>>=20 Cozy Mk-IV N31CZ (65 hrs - Rotary 13B NA)
>>>> Redmond=20 (Seattle),=20 = Washington
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>= ;=20 -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Rotary motors = in=20 aircraft  
>>>>>=20 [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net]
> = On
>>>>> Behalf=20 Of Bulent Aliev
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 05, = 2006 8:20=20 PM
>>>>> To: Rotary motors in=20 aircraft
>>>>> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: OT: = Gardenhose as=20 = level
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>= >>
>>>>>>=20 Guess I need to buy some expensive clear hose=20 .....
>>>>>>=20 Finn
>>>>>
>>>>> Finn, if you buy = the=20 right size, one day you can used for your  =
>>>>>=20 fuel
>>>>> lines on the next airplane. Worked very = well on=20 the first one :)
>>>>> Buly
>>>>> = Finally=20 checked out in my plane.
>>>>> Did my first 100 mile = "cross=20 country". Or should I say "break down
>>>>> cruise"=20 :),
>>>>>
>>>>> = --
>>>>>=20 Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
>&= gt;>>>=20 Archive and UnSub:   http://mail.lancaironline.n= et/lists/=20
>>>>>=20 flyrotary/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> = --
>>>> Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
>&= gt;>>=20 Archive and UnSub:   http://mail.lanca= ironline.net/lists/flyrotary/
>>>
>>>
>= >>=20 --
>>> Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
>&= gt;>=20 Archive and UnSub:   http://mail.lanca= ironline.net/lists/flyrotary/
>>>
>>
>>=
>>
>>=20 --
>> Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
>&= gt;=20 Archive and UnSub:   http://mail.lanca= ironline.net/lists/flyrotary/
>>
>>
>>=20 --
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> = Checked=20 by AVG Free Edition.
>> Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database:=20 268.11.7/436 - Release Date: 
>>=20 9/1/2006
>>
>>
>
>
> --
>=20 Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
> = Archive=20 and UnSub:   http://mail.lanca= ironline.net/lists/flyrotary/


--
Homepage: =20 http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archi= ve and=20 UnSub:   http://mail.lanca= ironline.net/lists/flyrotary/
------=_NextPart_000_004B_01C6D272.A782CDF0--