Return-Path: Received: from ms-smtp-02.southeast.rr.com ([24.93.67.83] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.1.4) with ESMTP id 2602226 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 16:55:01 -0400 Received: from o7y6b5 (clt78-020.carolina.rr.com [24.93.78.20]) by ms-smtp-02.southeast.rr.com (8.12.5/8.12.2) with SMTP id h8OKp8pN021716 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 16:51:09 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <006801c382dd$b68a3500$1702a8c0@WorkGroup> From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: DIE the short Answer Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 16:52:05 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0065_01C382BC.2F463A60" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0065_01C382BC.2F463A60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Al Gietzen=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2003 3:14 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: DIE the short Answer In any case, the EDDIE study indicated that for my system that = combining the primary and secondary runners after they exit the block = not only would probably not hurt things, it might help. Well, it = certainly simplified the tube alignment problem and we will see about = its affect (if any) on performance. This puzzles me, and maybe I missed some prior part of this = discussion; but how do avoid getting a wave reflection; degradation or = whatever at the junction of two into one? Al Good question. Al. First, I am not an induction airflow expert. I have read a bit = about it and you are correct, you can get harmful reflections at = intersections. From what I understand (which may be incorrect), the = amount of reflected energy you get depends on several things (can't = remember them all). One of those factors is the type of convergence = ("T" section or "Y" type for example), a second factor is the amount of = change in cross section between the separate tubes and the single tube. = Perhaps how fast they converge/diverge has an effect -but not certain = about that one. That's all I think I remember about intersections at = the moment. The main reason (as far as I can see) for Mazda having a primary and = secondary runner system is they have different timing for those ports. = That would really screw up (in my opinion) the airflow if they had used = just one tube. Each port with its different timing would be sending = pulses through the system and sucking air out of sync and its doubtful = (in my mind) that would have been beneficial. =20 It also permitted them to keep the airflow velocity high in the = primary by keeping the runner and port size smaller promoting good = chamber packing at lower rpms. Then when they needed heavy breathing = for the higher RPMS they had the secondary with its larger port and = runners and different port timing. Now, for those reasons (and perhaps others), I can see why separating = the runners for automobile application had considerable merit. My = statement was to suggest that perhaps those factors are not as = significant for aircraft application and therefore the simplicity of = combining the runners might have benefit for the aircraft use that = outweighed an adverse things as you mentioned. I could be wrong of course, and my next intake manifold (in progress = as we chat) should provide some data on whether my combining intake = runners helped or hurt. That's my take on it. Ed ------=_NextPart_000_0065_01C382BC.2F463A60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Al = Gietzen=20
Sent: Wednesday, September 24, = 2003 3:14=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: DIE = the short=20 Answer

 

In any case, the EDDIE = study=20 indicated that for my system that combining the primary and secondary = runners=20 after they exit the block not only would probably not hurt things, it = might=20 help.  Well, it certainly simplified the tube alignment problem = and we=20 will see about its affect (if any) on = performance.

 

This puzzles me,=20 and maybe I missed some prior part of this discussion; but how do = avoid=20 getting a wave reflection; degradation or whatever at the junction of = two into=20 one?

 

Al

 

Good = question.=20 Al.

 

   =20 First, I am not an induction airflow expert.  I have read a bit = about it=20 and you are correct, you can get harmful reflections at = intersections. =20 From what I understand (which may be incorrect), the amount of = reflected=20 energy you get depends on several things (can't remember them = all).  One=20 of those factors is the type  of convergence ("T" section or = "Y"=20 type for example), a second factor is the amount of  change in = cross=20 section between the separate tubes and the single tube.  Perhaps = how fast=20 they converge/diverge has an effect -but not certain about that=20 one.  That's all I think I remember about intersections at the=20 moment.

 

The main = reason (as=20 far as I can see) for Mazda having a primary and secondary runner = system is=20 they have different timing for those ports.  That would really = screw up=20 (in my opinion)  the airflow if they had used just one = tube. Each=20 port with its different timing would be sending pulses through the = system and=20 sucking air out of sync and its doubtful (in my mind) that would = have=20 been beneficial.  

 

 It = also=20 permitted them to keep the airflow velocity high in the primary by = keeping the=20 runner and port size smaller promoting good chamber packing at lower=20 rpms.  Then when they needed heavy breathing for the higher RPMS = they had=20 the secondary with its larger port and runners and different port=20 timing.

 

Now, for = those=20 reasons (and perhaps others), I can see why separating the runners for = automobile application had considerable merit.  My statement was=20 to suggest that perhaps those factors are not as significant for = aircraft=20 application and therefore the simplicity of combining the runners = might have=20 benefit for the aircraft use that outweighed an adverse things as you=20 mentioned.

 

I could = be wrong of=20 course, and my next intake manifold (in progress as we chat) should = provide=20 some data on whether my combining intake runners helped or=20 hurt.

 

 

That's my = take on=20 it.

 

Ed

 

 

 

 

------=_NextPart_000_0065_01C382BC.2F463A60--