X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from ms-smtp-04.southeast.rr.com ([24.25.9.103] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.1c.2) with ESMTP id 1231461 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 10 Jul 2006 17:53:52 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=24.25.9.103; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Received: from edward2 (cpe-024-074-111-186.carolina.res.rr.com [24.74.111.186]) by ms-smtp-04.southeast.rr.com (8.13.6/8.13.6) with SMTP id k6ALr5rD003412 for ; Mon, 10 Jul 2006 17:53:07 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <002901c6a46b$41b08060$2402a8c0@edward2> From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] FW: [FlyRotary] Re: Suitability of NPG for Rotary Engine use Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2006 17:53:19 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0026_01C6A449.BA5C3210" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0026_01C6A449.BA5C3210 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mark, my understanding is that the dishwashing soap does indeed perform = a function similar to water wetter in that it supposedly lowers the = surface tension/viscosity and permits the water molecules better contact = with the hot metal. The 10% antifreeze is for corrosion protection. = But presumable you could just use corrosion inhibitors which Red Line = may have in the solution. =20 But, since I feel comfortable with my current temp ranges, I have not = tried either Redline(recently) nor dishwashing soap. I run around 20% = antifreeze in the summer and bump it up to 50% during the cold months. Ed ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Mark R Steitle=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Monday, July 10, 2006 4:53 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] FW: [FlyRotary] Re: Suitability of NPG for Rotary = Engine use Jesse,=20 Here is a post from Feb '06 by Lynn Hanover that I had filed away in = my "Cooling" folder. It addresses the issue of NPG, but his explanation = of the "best you can do" is right on, IMHO. Note his recommendation to = use a teaspoon of dishwashing soap. Could this have the same results as = water wetter? Maybe so, and for a few pennies. As I understand it, the = 10% antifreeze is mainly for corrosion control. =20 =20 I saved a chart from the other group that shows the heat transfer = capacity of various ratios of water and EG. 100% water is much better = than a 50/50 mix. I'll see if I can find it and send it to you = directly. =20 Mark =20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of Bulent Aliev Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2006 7:00 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Suitability of NPG for Rotary Engine use =20 Lynn, what is the purpose of the dishwashing soap? Bulent "Buly" Aliev http://tinyurl.com/dcy36 =20 On Feb 2, 2006, at 7:13 AM, Lehanover@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 2/1/2006 10:34:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, = wschertz@ispwest.com writes: ** speculation/theory** The only reason for using this stuff is to make the people selling it = happy. =20 I have never seen it in a racing situation. Distilled water, maybe 10% = antifreeze, a teaspoon full of dishwashing soap. Put the 18-24 pound = pressure cap on the make up tank. Get the air out of the system and that = is the best you can do. At 6,000 RPM the stock pump will empty the = coolant in 10 seconds or less. =20 =20 If it won't cool with the above setup, it isn't the setup. Its = airflow/exchanger size/ distribution. =20 All bets are off for turbo installations. =20 On cool days we run a 160 degree thermostat and tape off part of the = radiator (Griffin). Normally, (up to the hottest days) no thermostat, full radiator. Top = temp is 180. Oil is 190.=20 It takes a big oil radiator to cool a rotary. I have three 13 row = Setrabs. =20 If you watch the movies of the instruments after a race, you would = think the engine must be junk. Not the case at all. Even an early = downshift that takes the engine right past the rev limit (the drivers other hobby) of 9,600 RPM has no affect at all. =20 I have yet to see an aircraft installation that looked like it could = put out more than 200 HP. The two GM cores are enough for water. Oil is a poor transfer medium = so it takes a bigger cooler to do the same job (remove the same number = of BTUs per second).=20 =20 There is just no magic involved. There is no need to reinvent the = wheel for each installation. If you have cooling problems at 180 HP, how will you ever enjoy a 200 = HP installation?=20 =20 The HP is the easy part. Get the cooling right first. =20 Just my opinion,............I could be wrong. =20 Are there any opinions on a good airfoil for 2,400 pounds going 200 = MPH? =20 Lynn E. Hanover =20 =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0026_01C6A449.BA5C3210 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Mark, my understanding is that the dishwashing = soap does=20 indeed perform a function similar to water wetter in that it supposedly = lowers=20 the surface tension/viscosity and permits the water molecules better = contact=20 with the hot metal.  The 10% antifreeze is for corrosion = protection. =20 But presumable you could just use corrosion inhibitors which Red Line = may have=20 in the solution. 
 
But, since I feel comfortable with my current = temp ranges,=20  I have not tried either Redline(recently)  nor dishwashing=20 soap.  I run around 20% antifreeze in the summer and bump it up to = 50%=20 during the cold months.
 
Ed
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Mark R Steitle =
Sent: Monday, July 10, 2006 = 4:53 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] FW: = [FlyRotary] Re:=20 Suitability of NPG for Rotary Engine use

Jesse,=20

Here is a = post from=20 Feb =9106 by Lynn Hanover that I had filed away in my =93Cooling=94 = folder.  It=20 addresses the issue of NPG, but his explanation of the =93best you can = do=94 is=20 right on, IMHO.  Note his recommendation to use a teaspoon of = dishwashing=20 soap.  Could this have the same results as water wetter?  = Maybe so,=20 and for a few pennies.  As I understand it, the 10% antifreeze is = mainly=20 for corrosion control. 

 

I saved a = chart from=20 the other group that shows the heat transfer capacity of various = ratios of=20 water and EG.  100% water is much better than a 50/50 mix.  = I=92ll see=20 if I can find it and send it to you = directly.

 

Mark

 

From:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft = [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On=20 Behalf Of Bulent Aliev
Sent: Thursday, February 02, = 2006 7:00=20 AM
To: = Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Suitability of=20 NPG for Rotary Engine use

 

Lynn, = what is the=20 purpose of the dishwashing soap?

Bulent = "Buly"=20 Aliev

http://tinyurl.com/dcy36=



 

On Feb 2, 2006, at 7:13 AM, Lehanover@aol.com=20 wrote:



In a = message dated=20 2/1/2006 10:34:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, wschertz@ispwest.com=20 writes:

**=20 = speculation/theory**

The only = reason for=20 using this stuff is to make the people selling it=20 happy.

 

I have = never seen it=20 in a racing situation. Distilled water, maybe 10% antifreeze, a = teaspoon full=20 of dishwashing soap. Put the 18-24 pound pressure cap on the make up = tank. Get=20 the air out of the system and that is the best you can do. At 6,000 = RPM the=20 stock pump will empty the coolant in 10 seconds or less.=20  

 

If it = won't cool=20 with the above setup, it isn't the setup. Its airflow/exchanger size/=20 distribution.

 

All bets = are off for=20 turbo installations.

 

On cool = days we run=20 a 160 degree thermostat and tape off part of the radiator (Griffin).

=

Normally, = (up to the=20 hottest days) no thermostat, full radiator. Top temp is 180. Oil is = 190.=20

It takes a = big oil=20 radiator to cool a rotary. I have three 13 row=20 Setrabs.

 

If you = watch the=20 movies of the instruments after a race, you would think the engine = must be=20 junk. Not the case at all. Even an early downshift that takes the = engine right=20 past the rev limit

(the = drivers other=20 hobby) of 9,600 RPM has no affect at = all.

 

I have yet = to see an=20 aircraft installation that looked like it could put out more than 200=20 HP.

The two GM = cores are=20 enough for water. Oil is a poor transfer medium so it takes a bigger = cooler to=20 do the same job (remove the same number of BTUs per second).=20

 

There is = just no=20 magic involved. There is no need to reinvent the wheel for each=20 installation.

If you = have cooling=20 problems at 180 HP, how will you ever enjoy a 200 HP installation?=20

 

The HP is = the easy=20 part. Get the cooling right first.

 

Just my=20 opinion,............I could be = wrong.

 

Are there = any=20 opinions on a good airfoil for 2,400 pounds going 200=20 MPH?

 

Lynn E.=20 Hanover

 

 

 

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