X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from ms-smtp-01.southeast.rr.com ([24.25.9.100] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.0.9) with ESMTP id 1124717 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 23 May 2006 09:51:44 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=24.25.9.100; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Received: from edward2 (cpe-024-074-111-186.carolina.res.rr.com [24.74.111.186]) by ms-smtp-01.southeast.rr.com (8.13.6/8.13.6) with SMTP id k4NDotEb003106 for ; Tue, 23 May 2006 09:50:57 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <000b01c67e70$0321c6e0$2402a8c0@edward2> From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Another case of heat-soaked coils? Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 09:51:37 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0008_01C67E4E.7BBF20B0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C67E4E.7BBF20B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I certainly agree with Tracy. Get to know every nuance of your engine. = How it feels, what the vibration is like, what does it sound like at = 3000 rpm, how does your EGT respond to throttle movement, what does the = exhaust drone sound like, etc. I must admit I haven't sniffed the = intake air, yet - but, I'll try that next time {:>). =20 Ed P.S. You'll have to make a return visit with Laura before the secret of = the Gin & Tonic concoction is revealed {:>) ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Tracy Crook=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2006 9:22 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Another case of heat-soaked coils? Right-O on the difficulty of long distance diagnosis. John did tell me that the threshold of 'splutter' was around 38" Hg = MAP. Since the engine quickly went down hill even at lower throttle = settings and he thought it was only running on one rotor at the end of = testing, I suspect there are a lot of clues to what is wrong other than = the 'splutter' at 38". We just don't know what they are. The coils = being bad is a long shot since it would mean that two of them died at = once, not likely but possible. =20 Sermon follows: Guys, Learn to be very sensitive to your engine. Know every nuance = of its character. If you don't know what the air drifting out of the = inlets after shutdown smells like, you aren't paying enough attention. = =20 Tracy=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Ed Anderson=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2006 7:45 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Another case of heat-soaked coils? John, Not being there makes it hard to make an assessment. Anytime = I have=20 had an engine spitting and popping it either mean the air/fuel = mixture was=20 too lean or I had a ignition problem (mainly timing). I have no = experience=20 with any coils other than the stock Mazda but additional cooling = certainly=20 could not hurt. It really sounds like to me your engine is = increasing rpm=20 until its getting into a region where the air/fuel mixture may be = too lean.=20 Normally a too lean engine will pop and spit but not certain if your = sputter=20 is same as my sputter {:>). Also you did not mention what boost = levels you=20 were running when this was happening. Ed Any time my engine acts abnormal, its grounded until I figure out = the=20 problem ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "John Slade" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Sent: Monday, May 22, 2006 9:56 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Another case of heat-soaked coils? > Yesterday I took a friend for a ride and the engine purred sweetly = for the=20 > entire trip. Looking back, the only thing different was that there = didn't=20 > seem to be an rpm drop when I disabled leading or trailing coils = during=20 > the runup. > > Today all was normal during runup (except perhaps the coil disable = causing=20 > no rpm drop) and full power got me 5300 before I couldn't hold it = any more=20 > on the brakes. Take-off and climb were normal. On the downwind I = was=20 > showing 5800 rpm so I decide to coursen the prop. When I did I = felt a=20 > splutter. I reduced throttle and the engine ran normally. I = increased=20 > throttle. More splutter. I reduced throttle and it ran normally at = 4600.=20 > Any more throttle and all I got was reduced power & popping and = spitting.=20 > I circled the field trying mixture adjustments, checking fuel = pressure on=20 > both pumps, coil & injector defeat and swapping to B computer. = Nothing=20 > seemed to make any difference, so I landed. > > The only change since the previous flight was that I'd replaced = the plugs=20 > with a clean set - not new - just clean. Suspecting a bad plug I = let the=20 > engine cool down a bit, then installed new ones. Later in the day = the=20 > engine ran fine during taxi and again reached 5300 on runup. = Acceleration=20 > seemed normal then, halfway through the takeoff roll, I felt a = splutter,=20 > so I aborted and rolled off the runway. > > When I added power to taxi clear of the runway the spitting got = much=20 > worse. So bad, in fact that it seemed to be running on one rotor = and there=20 > was insufficient thrust to move the plane forward. I tried = adjusting=20 > mixture and defeating injectors & coils again and the engine = eventually=20 > stopped. I was able to restart, but had the same symptoms. The rpm = was=20 > fairly steady at 1100 or so, but this was the max rpm I could get. = The EM2=20 > was flip flopping rpm readings 2300...400...2100..800...every = couple of=20 > seconds. > > I called Tracy from right there on the taxiway. As always - he = took the=20 > call and listened to my unscientific whining. Thank you Tracy :) = Anyway,=20 > his best thought was that it sounded like it might be a coil = heat-soak=20 > problem. It definitely seems heat related, and my cowl has been = running a=20 > bit hotter since I installed the new T04 turbo. > > I pushed (yes pushed) the plane back to the hangar, then tried = turning the=20 > prop to feel all six compression strokes. To my untrained arm = muscles the=20 > compressions all felt the same. I ordered 4 new coils and will = report if=20 > this corrects the problem. Whether it does or not, I see a = separate air=20 > duct for the coils in my future. The blow tube I installed may not = be=20 > providing enough cooling. I once tried installing a temp sensor at = the=20 > coils, but this sent other EM2 temp readings haywire - induced = current=20 > from the ignition? - so unfortunately I don't have temp readings = on the=20 > coils. > > Anyone have additional thoughts on this? > > Sincerely, > Frustrated in Florida (I could add another F at the beginning to = help with=20 > the .ing alliteration, but I won't) > > > > > -- > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/ >=20 -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/ ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C67E4E.7BBF20B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I certainly agree with Tracy.  Get = to know=20 every nuance of your engine.  How it feels, what the vibration is = like,=20 what does it sound like at 3000 rpm, how does your EGT respond to = throttle=20 movement, what does the exhaust drone sound like, etc.  I must = admit I=20 haven't sniffed the intake air, yet - but, I'll try that next time=20 {:>). 
 
 
Ed
 
P.S. You'll have to make a return visit = with Laura=20 before the secret of the Gin & Tonic concoction is revealed=20 {:>)
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Tracy = Crook
Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2006 = 9:22 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Another case of=20 heat-soaked coils?

Right-O on the difficulty of long distance diagnosis.
 
John did tell me that the threshold of 'splutter' was around 38" = Hg=20 MAP.  Since the engine quickly went down hill even at lower = throttle=20 settings and he thought it was only running on one rotor at the end of = testing,  I suspect there are a lot of clues to what is wrong = other than=20 the 'splutter' at 38".   We just don't know what they = are.  The=20 coils being bad is a long shot since it would mean that two of them = died at=20 once, not likely but possible. 
 
Sermon follows:
 
Guys,  Learn to be very sensitive to your = engine.   Know=20 every nuance of its character.  If you don't know what the air = drifting=20 out of the inlets after shutdown smells like,  you aren't paying = enough=20 attention.   
 
Tracy
----- Original Message -----
From: Ed Anderson
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20
Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2006 = 7:45=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Another case=20 of heat-soaked coils?

John, Not being there makes it hard to make an=20 assessment.  Anytime I have
had an engine spitting and = popping it=20 either mean the air/fuel mixture was
too lean or I had a = ignition=20 problem (mainly timing).  I have no experience
with any = coils other=20 than the stock Mazda but additional cooling certainly
could not=20 hurt.  It really sounds like to me your engine is increasing = rpm=20
until its getting into a region where the air/fuel mixture may = be too=20 lean.
Normally a too lean engine will pop and spit but not = certain if=20 your sputter
is same as my sputter {:>).  Also you did = not=20 mention what boost levels you
were running when this was=20 happening.

Ed



Any time my engine acts = abnormal, its=20 grounded until I figure out the
problem
----- Original = Message -----=20
From: "John Slade" <sladerj@bellsouth.net>
To= :=20 "Rotary motors in aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent:=20 Monday, May 22, 2006 9:56 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Another case of = heat-soaked coils?


> Yesterday I took a friend for a = ride and=20 the engine purred sweetly for the
> entire trip. Looking = back, the=20 only thing different was that there didn't
> seem to be an = rpm drop=20 when I disabled leading or trailing coils during
> the=20 runup.
>
> Today all was normal during runup (except = perhaps the=20 coil disable causing
> no rpm drop) and full power got me = 5300 before=20 I couldn't hold it any more
> on the brakes. Take-off and = climb were=20 normal. On the downwind I was
> showing 5800 rpm so I decide = to=20 coursen the prop. When I did I felt a
> splutter. I reduced = throttle=20 and the engine ran normally. I increased
> throttle. More = splutter. I=20 reduced throttle and it ran normally at 4600.
> Any more = throttle and=20 all I got was reduced power & popping and spitting.
> I = circled=20 the field trying mixture adjustments, checking fuel pressure on =
>=20 both pumps, coil & injector defeat and swapping to B computer. = Nothing=20
> seemed to make any difference, so I landed.
>
> = The=20 only change since the previous flight was that I'd replaced the = plugs=20
> with a clean set - not new - just clean. Suspecting a bad = plug I=20 let the
> engine cool down a bit, then installed new ones. = Later in=20 the day the
> engine ran fine during taxi and again reached = 5300 on=20 runup. Acceleration
> seemed normal then, halfway through the = takeoff=20 roll, I felt a splutter,
> so I aborted and rolled off the=20 runway.
>
> When I added power to taxi clear of the = runway the=20 spitting got much
> worse. So bad, in fact that it seemed to = be=20 running on one rotor and there
> was insufficient thrust to = move the=20 plane forward. I tried adjusting
> mixture and defeating = injectors=20 & coils again and the engine eventually
> stopped. I was = able to=20 restart, but had the same symptoms. The rpm was
> fairly = steady at=20 1100 or so, but this was the max rpm I could get. The EM2
> = was flip=20 flopping rpm readings 2300...400...2100..800...every couple of =
>=20 seconds.
>
> I called Tracy from right there on the = taxiway. As=20 always - he took the
> call and listened to my unscientific = whining.=20 Thank you Tracy :)  Anyway,
> his best thought was that = it=20 sounded like it might be a coil heat-soak
> problem. It = definitely=20 seems heat related, and my cowl has been running a
> bit = hotter since=20 I installed the new T04 turbo.
>
> I pushed (yes pushed) = the=20 plane back to the hangar, then tried turning the
> prop to = feel all=20 six compression strokes. To my untrained arm muscles the
>=20 compressions all felt the same. I ordered 4 new coils and will = report if=20
> this corrects the problem. Whether it does or not, I see a = separate=20 air
> duct for the coils in my future. The blow tube I = installed may=20 not be
> providing enough cooling. I once tried installing a = temp=20 sensor at the
> coils, but this sent other EM2 temp readings = haywire=20 - induced current
> from the ignition? - so unfortunately I = don't=20 have temp readings on the
> coils.
>
> Anyone = have=20 additional thoughts on this?
>
> Sincerely,
> = Frustrated=20 in Florida (I could add another F at the beginning to help with =
> the=20 .ing alliteration, but I = won't)
>
>
>
>
>=20 --
> Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
> = Archive and UnSub:   http://mail.lanca= ironline.net/lists/flyrotary/
>=20



--
Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archi= ve=20 and UnSub:   http://mail.lanca= ironline.net/lists/flyrotary/
------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C67E4E.7BBF20B0--