X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from [65.54.250.78] (HELO hotmail.com) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.0.9) with ESMTP id 1124680 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 23 May 2006 09:26:58 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=65.54.250.78; envelope-from=lors01@msn.com Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 23 May 2006 06:22:26 -0700 Message-ID: Received: from 4.171.147.128 by BAY115-DAV6.phx.gbl with DAV; Tue, 23 May 2006 13:22:25 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [4.171.147.128] X-Originating-Email: [lors01@msn.com] X-Sender: lors01@msn.com From: "Tracy Crook" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Another case of heat-soaked coils? Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 09:22:19 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0020_01C67E4A.63F220D0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: MSN 9 X-MimeOLE: Produced By MSN MimeOLE V9.20.0026.0800 Seal-Send-Time: Tue, 23 May 2006 09:22:19 -0400 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 23 May 2006 13:22:26.0659 (UTC) FILETIME=[EF36E330:01C67E6B] This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C67E4A.63F220D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Right-O on the difficulty of long distance diagnosis. John did tell me that the threshold of 'splutter' was around 38" Hg MAP. = Since the engine quickly went down hill even at lower throttle settings = and he thought it was only running on one rotor at the end of testing, = I suspect there are a lot of clues to what is wrong other than the = 'splutter' at 38". We just don't know what they are. The coils being = bad is a long shot since it would mean that two of them died at once, = not likely but possible. =20 Sermon follows: Guys, Learn to be very sensitive to your engine. Know every nuance of = its character. If you don't know what the air drifting out of the = inlets after shutdown smells like, you aren't paying enough attention. = =20 Tracy=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Ed Anderson=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2006 7:45 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Another case of heat-soaked coils? John, Not being there makes it hard to make an assessment. Anytime I = have=20 had an engine spitting and popping it either mean the air/fuel mixture = was=20 too lean or I had a ignition problem (mainly timing). I have no = experience=20 with any coils other than the stock Mazda but additional cooling = certainly=20 could not hurt. It really sounds like to me your engine is increasing = rpm=20 until its getting into a region where the air/fuel mixture may be too = lean.=20 Normally a too lean engine will pop and spit but not certain if your = sputter=20 is same as my sputter {:>). Also you did not mention what boost = levels you=20 were running when this was happening. Ed Any time my engine acts abnormal, its grounded until I figure out the=20 problem ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "John Slade" = > To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" = > Sent: Monday, May 22, 2006 9:56 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Another case of heat-soaked coils? > Yesterday I took a friend for a ride and the engine purred sweetly = for the=20 > entire trip. Looking back, the only thing different was that there = didn't=20 > seem to be an rpm drop when I disabled leading or trailing coils = during=20 > the runup. > > Today all was normal during runup (except perhaps the coil disable = causing=20 > no rpm drop) and full power got me 5300 before I couldn't hold it = any more=20 > on the brakes. Take-off and climb were normal. On the downwind I was = > showing 5800 rpm so I decide to coursen the prop. When I did I felt = a=20 > splutter. I reduced throttle and the engine ran normally. I = increased=20 > throttle. More splutter. I reduced throttle and it ran normally at = 4600.=20 > Any more throttle and all I got was reduced power & popping and = spitting.=20 > I circled the field trying mixture adjustments, checking fuel = pressure on=20 > both pumps, coil & injector defeat and swapping to B computer. = Nothing=20 > seemed to make any difference, so I landed. > > The only change since the previous flight was that I'd replaced the = plugs=20 > with a clean set - not new - just clean. Suspecting a bad plug I let = the=20 > engine cool down a bit, then installed new ones. Later in the day = the=20 > engine ran fine during taxi and again reached 5300 on runup. = Acceleration=20 > seemed normal then, halfway through the takeoff roll, I felt a = splutter,=20 > so I aborted and rolled off the runway. > > When I added power to taxi clear of the runway the spitting got much = > worse. So bad, in fact that it seemed to be running on one rotor and = there=20 > was insufficient thrust to move the plane forward. I tried adjusting = > mixture and defeating injectors & coils again and the engine = eventually=20 > stopped. I was able to restart, but had the same symptoms. The rpm = was=20 > fairly steady at 1100 or so, but this was the max rpm I could get. = The EM2=20 > was flip flopping rpm readings 2300...400...2100..800...every couple = of=20 > seconds. > > I called Tracy from right there on the taxiway. As always - he took = the=20 > call and listened to my unscientific whining. Thank you Tracy :) = Anyway,=20 > his best thought was that it sounded like it might be a coil = heat-soak=20 > problem. It definitely seems heat related, and my cowl has been = running a=20 > bit hotter since I installed the new T04 turbo. > > I pushed (yes pushed) the plane back to the hangar, then tried = turning the=20 > prop to feel all six compression strokes. To my untrained arm = muscles the=20 > compressions all felt the same. I ordered 4 new coils and will = report if=20 > this corrects the problem. Whether it does or not, I see a separate = air=20 > duct for the coils in my future. The blow tube I installed may not = be=20 > providing enough cooling. I once tried installing a temp sensor at = the=20 > coils, but this sent other EM2 temp readings haywire - induced = current=20 > from the ignition? - so unfortunately I don't have temp readings on = the=20 > coils. > > Anyone have additional thoughts on this? > > Sincerely, > Frustrated in Florida (I could add another F at the beginning to = help with=20 > the .ing alliteration, but I won't) > > > > > -- > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/ >=20 -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/ ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C67E4A.63F220D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Right-O on the difficulty of long distance diagnosis.
 
John did tell me that the threshold of 'splutter' was around 38" Hg = MAP.  Since the engine quickly went down hill even at lower = throttle=20 settings and he thought it was only running on one rotor at the end of=20 testing,  I suspect there are a lot of clues to what is wrong other = than=20 the 'splutter' at 38".   We just don't know what they = are.  The=20 coils being bad is a long shot since it would mean that two of them died = at=20 once, not likely but possible. 
 
Sermon follows:
 
Guys,  Learn to be very sensitive to your engine.   = Know=20 every nuance of its character.  If you don't know what the air = drifting out=20 of the inlets after shutdown smells like,  you aren't paying enough = attention.   
 
Tracy
----- Original Message -----
From: Ed Anderson
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2006 = 7:45 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Another case of=20 heat-soaked coils?

John, Not being there makes it hard to make an=20 assessment.  Anytime I have
had an engine spitting and = popping it=20 either mean the air/fuel mixture was
too lean or I had a ignition = problem=20 (mainly timing).  I have no experience
with any coils other = than the=20 stock Mazda but additional cooling certainly
could not hurt.  = It=20 really sounds like to me your engine is increasing rpm
until its = getting=20 into a region where the air/fuel mixture may be too lean.
Normally = a too=20 lean engine will pop and spit but not certain if your sputter
is = same as=20 my sputter {:>).  Also you did not mention what boost levels = you=20
were running when this was happening.

Ed



Any = time my=20 engine acts abnormal, its grounded until I figure out the =
problem
-----=20 Original Message -----
From: "John Slade" <sladerj@bellsouth.net>
To= :=20 "Rotary motors in aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent:=20 Monday, May 22, 2006 9:56 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Another case of=20 heat-soaked coils?


> Yesterday I took a friend for a = ride and=20 the engine purred sweetly for the
> entire trip. Looking back, = the only=20 thing different was that there didn't
> seem to be an rpm drop = when I=20 disabled leading or trailing coils during
> the = runup.
>
>=20 Today all was normal during runup (except perhaps the coil disable = causing=20
> no rpm drop) and full power got me 5300 before I couldn't = hold it any=20 more
> on the brakes. Take-off and climb were normal. On the = downwind I=20 was
> showing 5800 rpm so I decide to coursen the prop. When I = did I=20 felt a
> splutter. I reduced throttle and the engine ran = normally. I=20 increased
> throttle. More splutter. I reduced throttle and it = ran=20 normally at 4600.
> Any more throttle and all I got was reduced = power=20 & popping and spitting.
> I circled the field trying = mixture=20 adjustments, checking fuel pressure on
> both pumps, coil & = injector defeat and swapping to B computer. Nothing
> seemed to = make=20 any difference, so I landed.
>
> The only change since the = previous flight was that I'd replaced the plugs
> with a clean = set -=20 not new - just clean. Suspecting a bad plug I let the
> engine = cool=20 down a bit, then installed new ones. Later in the day the
> = engine ran=20 fine during taxi and again reached 5300 on runup. Acceleration =
> seemed=20 normal then, halfway through the takeoff roll, I felt a splutter, =
> so=20 I aborted and rolled off the runway.
>
> When I added = power to=20 taxi clear of the runway the spitting got much
> worse. So bad, = in fact=20 that it seemed to be running on one rotor and there
> was = insufficient=20 thrust to move the plane forward. I tried adjusting
> mixture = and=20 defeating injectors & coils again and the engine eventually =
>=20 stopped. I was able to restart, but had the same symptoms. The rpm was =
> fairly steady at 1100 or so, but this was the max rpm I could = get.=20 The EM2
> was flip flopping rpm readings = 2300...400...2100..800...every=20 couple of
> seconds.
>
> I called Tracy from right = there on=20 the taxiway. As always - he took the
> call and listened to my=20 unscientific whining. Thank you Tracy :)  Anyway,
> his = best=20 thought was that it sounded like it might be a coil heat-soak
> = problem. It definitely seems heat related, and my cowl has been = running a=20
> bit hotter since I installed the new T04 = turbo.
>
> I=20 pushed (yes pushed) the plane back to the hangar, then tried turning = the=20
> prop to feel all six compression strokes. To my untrained arm = muscles=20 the
> compressions all felt the same. I ordered 4 new coils and = will=20 report if
> this corrects the problem. Whether it does or not, = I see a=20 separate air
> duct for the coils in my future. The blow tube I = installed may not be
> providing enough cooling. I once tried=20 installing a temp sensor at the
> coils, but this sent other = EM2 temp=20 readings haywire - induced current
> from the ignition? - so=20 unfortunately I don't have temp readings on the
>=20 coils.
>
> Anyone have additional thoughts on=20 this?
>
> Sincerely,
> Frustrated in Florida (I = could add=20 another F at the beginning to help with
> the .ing = alliteration, but I=20 won't)
>
>
>
>
> --
> = Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
> = Archive=20 and UnSub:   http://mail.lanca= ironline.net/lists/flyrotary/
>=20



--
Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archi= ve and=20 UnSub:   http://mail.lanca= ironline.net/lists/flyrotary/
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