X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from imo-d21.mx.aol.com ([205.188.144.207] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.0.9) with ESMTP id 1110366 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 12 May 2006 07:20:50 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=205.188.144.207; envelope-from=Lehanover@aol.com Received: from Lehanover@aol.com by imo-d21.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v38_r7.5.) id q.324.3a642f2 (3924) for ; Fri, 12 May 2006 07:20:00 -0400 (EDT) From: Lehanover@aol.com Message-ID: <324.3a642f2.3195c960@aol.com> Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 07:20:00 EDT Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: oil cooler lines To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1147432800" X-Mailer: 9.0 Security Edition for Windows sub 5301 X-Spam-Flag: NO -------------------------------1147432800 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/12/2006 12:15:39 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, keltro@att.net writes: Lynn, This is a little late but after rereading your answer to Bob Mears I wondered how you would eliminate the front relief valve opening and case to iron "O" ring ?? Kelly Troyer This an answer to that question I did from the "Nopistons" list. Very big list. Often very informative. Well I just had my secondary relief valve partially fail. this utterly destroyed my engine in just 50 miles from the rebuild. My shop blames the plastic coating guys, since the front cover on my FD may have been warped. anyway, the plunger was badly scored, scratched and mangled and I saw it being pulled out. This cost me all bearings, oil pump, side seals, e shaft and rear iron..... So I had in mind of eliminating the valve from that position, and have a relief valve set up under the oil filter housing. this gives me access to regulate the oil pressure, and also keep my original front face, but avoid the use of that valve. I know I saw some one here produced a CNC product but I just cant find it. Do you think its a good idea, and do you think that it would be a reliability mod?will it effect the safety of my engine having the relieved oil back into the sump using the under oil filter housing passage? or can I use the rear turbo oil return drain (rear iron)? I am going single turbo.... so that drain for the rear turbo will just be blocked... Thanks for reading and your time... George Was the plunger assembly installed while some plastic coating was being done? I don't understand the plastic comment. Anyway the "O" ring junction where oil leaves the front iron and enters the front cover has killed thousands of rotaries. The Japs won't admit that but then they won't admit the rape of Nanking either. The front relief valve opens to prevent oil cooler damage and keep the "O" ring from popping out on cold startup. But the front cover is so flexible that if you try it a few times, you can pop out the "O" ring anyway. Street racers jamb up the front relief pressure spring with washers, when they want more oil pressure from the installation of a higher value rear relief valve (100 to 115 PSI). So that makes it more likely that the "O" ring will pop out. What to do? If you have to use the stock pump, and the engine is apart, I would put a thick steel disc in the "O" ring hole so as to block all oil from leaving the engine. Then drill out the end of the lateral Gallery that runs past the faulty opening in the front iron. Install a dash 10 by "O" ring boss fitting in the end of that gallery. Now there is no "O" ring to blow out. If you are shaky on the "O" ring boss deal take the fitting and front iron to a machine shop and have them bore the hole out and plane the surface flat with a 45 at the mouth of the hole for the "O" ring to seal against. This the same sealing method used in hydraulics and on dry sump pumps. Or, you might make a steel or soft copper "O" ring that is thicker than the stock "O" ring and just use that. If it is steel it cannot pop out can it? (the "O" ring deforms badly) It is then a situation where part of the ring is clamped between the aluminum and the boss in the iron and cannot return to its stock location. This makes for a big hole in the pressure side and oil pressure goes way down. The only cure is to remove the front cover and replace the "O" ring. A giant pain in the a__. As a joke on the round eyes they added a plastic washer around the outside of the "O" ring to add pre load to the boss area. None of this would be needed if they had added a stud nearby the boss location to account for the flexible front cover lifting off under high oil pressure. Do not use a tapered pipe fitting. The boss in the iron is too small and will crack out when you tighten the fitting. The valving in the oil cooler is a temperature operated diverter valve that allows cold oil to run through the cooler rather than through the cooling channels for rapid warm-up. It also prevents a big pressure drop in the cooler. Actual (maximum) oil pressure is controlled by the relief valve at the bottom of the rear iron. For operation below 8,000 RPM the stock relief valve is fine (around 80 PSI) for racing at 8,000 plus RPM then an early relief valve shimmed up to 95 to 100 PSI is enough. For all out road or rally where operation above 9,000 RPM for extended periods is planned, 110 from a stock turbo relief or 115 from a Racing Beat relief should be used. I use a dry sump system with the maximum oil pressure set at 100 PSI and no bearing problems. There you go, problem solved. Lynn E. Hanover In road racing, we use an external pump. Either a complete dry sump system, so there is no oil pan at all, just a flat plate, or a wet sump with an external oil pump. I have both styles. In both cases, the galleries used for the stock pump are not used. Pressurized cooled and filtered oil enters the engine through the inner most hole on the filter stand in the rear iron. The outer most hole goes to the stock relief valve at the bottom of the iron, and is not used. A dash 10 line from an adaptor block on the filter stand is run to the front main bearing through the second lateral drilling to provide two paths to the front main. The stock path is through the upper dowel gallery, and the inside of those dowels is tapped with threads, so removal is easy. Not a good flow situation. If you disable the "O" ring failure mode, you can run a stock gasket in the front cover/ front iron junction, and avoid any oil leaks there. Leaving out the .025" gasket is one of the gags used to help get more pre-load on the "O" ring junction. Lynn E. Hanover -------------------------------1147432800 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In a message dated 5/12/2006 12:15:39 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,=20 keltro@att.net writes:
<= FONT=20 style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size= =3D2>
Lynn,
   This is a little late but after rereading your answer to= Bob=20 Mears I wondered how
you would eliminate the front relief valve opening and case to iron "= O"=20 ring ??
 
 
Kelly Troyer
This an answer to that question I did from the "Nopist= ons"=20 list. Very big list. Often very informative. 
 

Well I just had my secondary relief=20= valve=20 partially fail. this utterly destroyed my engine in just 50 miles from the=20 rebuild. My shop blames the plastic coating guys, since the front cover on=20 my FD may have been warped.
anyway, the plunger was badly scored,=20 scratched and mangled and I saw it being pulled out.

This cost m= e=20 all bearings, oil pump, side seals, e shaft and rear iron.....

So I had in mind of eliminatin= g the=20 valve from that position, and have a relief valve set up under the oil filte= r=20 housing. this gives me access to regulate the oil pressure, and also keep my= =20 original front face, but avoid the use of that valve.

I know I s= aw=20 some one here produced a CNC product but I just cant find it.=20

Do you think its a good idea, and do you think that it would be a=20 reliability mod?will it effect the safety of my engine having the relieved o= il=20 back into the sump using the under oil filter housing passage? or can I= use=20 the rear turbo oil return drain (rear iron)?  I am going single=20 turbo.... so that drain for the rear turbo will just be blocked...

Th= anks=20 for reading and your time...
George




Was the plunger assembly installed while some plastic=20 coating was being done? I don't understand the plastic comment.

Anywa= y=20 the "O" ring junction where oil leaves the front iron and enters the front c= over=20 has killed thousands of rotaries. The Japs won't admit that but then they wo= n't=20 admit the rape of Nanking either.

The front relief valve opens to pre= vent=20 oil cooler damage and keep the "O" ring from popping out on cold startup. Bu= t=20 the front cover is so flexible that if you try it a few times, you can pop o= ut=20 the "O" ring anyway.

Street racers jamb up the front relief pressure= =20 spring with washers, when they want more oil pressure from the installa= tion=20 of a higher value rear relief valve (100 to 115 PSI). So that makes it more=20 likely that the "O" ring will pop out.

What to do? If you have to us= e=20 the stock pump, and the engine is apart, I would put a thick steel disc in t= he=20 "O" ring hole so as to block all oil from leaving the engine. Then drill out= the=20 end of the lateral Gallery that runs past the faulty opening in the front ir= on.=20 Install a dash 10 by "O" ring boss fitting in the end of that gallery. Now t= here=20 is no "O" ring to blow out. If you are shaky on the "O" ring boss deal take=20= the=20 fitting and front iron to a machine shop and have them bore the hole out and= =20 plane the surface flat with a 45 at the mouth of the hole for the "O" ring t= o=20 seal against. This the same sealing method used in hydraulics and on dry sum= p=20 pumps.

Or, you might make a steel or soft copper "O" ring that is=20 thicker than the stock "O" ring and just use that. If it is steel it cannot=20= pop=20 out can it? (the "O" ring deforms badly) It is then a situation where part o= f=20 the ring is clamped between the aluminum and the boss in the iron and cannot= =20 return to its stock location. This makes for a big hole in the pressure side= and=20 oil pressure goes way down. The only cure is to remove the front cover and=20 replace the "O" ring. A giant pain in the a__.

As a joke on the round= =20 eyes they added a plastic washer around the outside of the "O" ring to add p= re=20 load to the boss area. None of this would be needed if they had added a stud= =20 nearby the boss location to account for the flexible front cover lifting off= =20 under high oil pressure.

Do not use a tapered pipe fitting. The boss= in=20 the iron is too small and will crack out when you tighten the fitting.=20

The valving in the oil cooler is a temperature operated diverter val= ve=20 that allows cold oil to run through the cooler rather than through the cooli= ng=20 channels for rapid warm-up. It also prevents a big pressure drop in the cool= er.=20 Actual (maximum) oil pressure is controlled by the relief valve at the botto= m of=20 the rear iron.

For operation below 8,000 RPM the stock relief valve=20= is=20 fine (around 80 PSI) for racing at 8,000 plus RPM then an early relief valve= =20 shimmed up to 95 to 100 PSI is enough. For all out road or rally where opera= tion=20 above 9,000 RPM for extended periods is planned, 110 from a stock turbo reli= ef=20 or 115 from a Racing Beat relief should be used. I use a dry sump system wit= h=20 the maximum oil pressure set at 100 PSI and no bearing problems.

Ther= e=20 you go, problem solved.

Lynn E. Hanover
 
In road racing, we use an external pump. Either a complete dry sump sys= tem,=20 so there is no oil pan at all, just a flat plate, or a wet sump with an exte= rnal=20 oil pump. I have both styles.
 
In both cases, the galleries used for the stock pump are not used.=20 Pressurized cooled and filtered oil enters the engine through the inner most= =20 hole on the filter stand in the rear iron. The outer most hole goes to the s= tock=20 relief valve at the bottom of the iron, and is not used.
 
A dash 10 line from an adaptor block on the filter stand is run to the=20 front main bearing through the second lateral drilling to provide two paths=20= to=20 the front main. The stock path is through the upper dowel gallery, and the=20 inside of those dowels is tapped with threads, so removal is easy. Not a goo= d=20 flow situation.
 
If you disable the "O" ring failure mode, you can run a stock gasket in= the=20 front cover/ front iron junction, and avoid any oil leaks there. Leaving out= the=20 .025" gasket is one of the gags used to help get more pre-load on the "O" ri= ng=20 junction.
 
 
Lynn E. Hanover
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