Return-Path: Received: from swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.123] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.1.3) with ESMTP id 2579514 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 14 Sep 2003 22:46:52 -0400 Received: from user-33qt585.dialup.mindspring.com ([199.174.149.5] helo=Carol) by swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19yjO2-0000Yi-00 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 14 Sep 2003 19:46:47 -0700 Message-ID: <005f01c37b33$8f776160$0000a398@Carol> From: "sqpilot@earthlink" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Good news, Bad news Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 21:46:25 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_005B_01C37B09.A55D1990" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2727.1300 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_005B_01C37B09.A55D1990 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_005C_01C37B09.A561D480" ------=_NextPart_001_005C_01C37B09.A561D480 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Russell Duffy=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Saturday, September 13, 2003 11:08 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Good news, Bad news Have you tested climb rate at lower speeds, where drag is less = important? Also, you could try reducing the size of the inlet to the = Radiator scoop to see if that reduces cooling drag, since you have = excess cooling available.=20 On the average RV-#, best rate of climb is about 100 kts, or 120 mph. = That's what it was on my RV-8, and also on a friend's RV-3. I'm seeing = best climb rate down around 80 kts, which was about the best angle of = climb on my RV-8. I think this is an indication that drag is becoming = too much of a factor in the higher speed climbs. There's no questioning = the airframe. The normal performance of an RV-3 is well known. I also = can't doubt the power the engine is putting out. It really slams you = back in the seat on takeoff. I think the only logical conclusion is = that there's an overwhelming amount of drag from the cowl. As for the cooling drag, I do have a huge opening for an air intake, = but I just can't imagine that being the majority of the problem. I'm = afraid the whole cowl will need to be re-worked, which means a smaller = radiator, and a new intake manifold. I just don't see any other option, = since I'm really not interested in flying it like it is.=20 Cheers, Rusty =20 Hi, Rusty....sorry you are having problems with drag, etc. I have the = same intake manifold as you, and the same throttlebody. I just ordered = a different manifold from Mazdatris (which is coming from Austrailia), = and I am going to first check to see if it fits as is. (see attached = photo) It is a simple 90 degree bend, with the throttle body mounting = vertical on it. If it is too high, I have a guy all lined up that can = bend the aluminum tubing, and another guy who is going to weld it up for = me. The advantage is, that the four intakes go into two right away, cast = into the first bend. Then from there, all I have to do is take it to my = machinist who will cut off the mounting flange and bore two holes for = the aluminum tubing. I will have that bent, and it will extend all the = way across the top of the engine, as close as possible to the engine, = which will allow it to fit within my cowling without having to make a = bump in the cowling. Of course I will have an adapter plate welded onto = the other end of the tubes for the throttlebody. They said it would = take about a week and a half to get the manifold, and that was a week = ago. I will keep you posted. It should be a fast and simple solution. = It will be similar to the setup that Paul Lamar is selling, but instead = it will only have two intakes running over the top of the engine, ending = with a plate on which to mount our type of throttlebody. Hope I = expressed this clearly? This intake will allow a turbo, of course. = Take care, and good luck. Paul Conner, Mobile, AL ------=_NextPart_001_005C_01C37B09.A561D480 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Russell=20 Duffy
Sent: Saturday, September 13, = 2003 11:08=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Good = news, Bad=20 news

Have you tested climb rate at = lower speeds,=20 where drag is less important? Also, you could try reducing the size of = the=20 inlet to the Radiator scoop to see if that reduces cooling drag, since = you=20 have excess cooling available. 
 
On the average RV-#, best rate of climb is = about 100 kts,=20 or 120 mph.  That's what it was on my RV-8, and also on a = friend's=20 RV-3.  I'm seeing best climb rate down around 80 kts, = which was=20 about the best angle of climb on my RV-8.  I think this is an = indication=20 that drag is becoming too much of a factor in the higher speed=20 climbs.  There's no questioning the=20 airframe.  The normal performance of an RV-3 is well=20 known.  I also can't doubt the power the engine is putting=20 out.  It really slams you back in the seat on takeoff.  = I think=20 the only logical conclusion is that there's an overwhelming = amount of=20 drag from the cowl.
 
As for the cooling drag, I do have a huge = opening for an=20 air intake, but I just can't imagine that being the majority of the=20 problem.  I'm afraid the whole cowl will need to be = re-worked,=20 which means a smaller radiator, and a new intake manifold.  = I just=20 don't see any other option, since I'm really not interested in = flying it=20 like it is. 
 
Cheers,
Rusty   
 
Hi,=20 Rusty....sorry you are having problems with drag, etc.  I have = the same=20 intake manifold as you, and the same throttlebody.  I just = ordered a=20 different manifold from Mazdatris (which is coming from = Austrailia), and=20 I am going to first check to see if it fits as is. (see attached=20 photo) It is a simple 90 degree bend, with the throttle body = mounting=20 vertical on it.  If it is too high, I have a guy all lined up = that can=20 bend the aluminum tubing, and another guy who is going to weld it up = for me.=20 The advantage is, that the four intakes go into two right away, cast = into the=20 first bend. Then from there, all I have to do is take it to my = machinist who=20 will cut off the mounting flange and bore two holes for the aluminum = tubing. I=20 will have that bent, and it will extend all the way across the top of = the=20 engine, as close as possible to the engine, which will allow it to fit = within=20 my cowling without having to make a bump in the cowling. Of = course I will=20 have an adapter plate welded onto the other end of the tubes for the=20 throttlebody.  They said it would take about a week and a half to = get the=20 manifold, and that was a week ago.  I will keep you = posted.  It=20 should be a fast and simple solution. It will be similar to the setup = that=20 Paul Lamar is selling, but instead it will only have two intakes = running over=20 the top of the engine, ending with a plate on which to mount our type = of=20 throttlebody.  Hope I expressed this clearly?   This = intake=20 will allow a turbo, of course. Take care, and good=20 luck.
Paul Conner,=20 Mobile, AL
------=_NextPart_001_005C_01C37B09.A561D480-- ------=_NextPart_000_005B_01C37B09.A55D1990 Content-Type: image/jpeg; name="intake manifold.jpeg" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="intake manifold.jpeg" /9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAQEAYABgAAD/2wBDABALDA4MChAODQ4SERATGCkbGBYWGDIkJh4pOzQ+PTo0 OThBSV5QQUVZRjg5Um9TWWFkaWppP09ze3Jmel5naWX/2wBDARESEhgVGDAbGzBlQzlDZWVlZWVl ZWVlZWVlZWVlZWVlZWVlZWVlZWVlZWVlZWVlZWVlZWVlZWVlZWVlZWVlZWX/wgARCACTAMoDASIA AhEBAxEB/8QAGQAAAwEBAQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAQIDAAQF/8QAGAEBAQEBAQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAEC AwT/2gAMAwEAAhADEAAAAelsWM2K47BZWlcr5U17A2lCkXKxfiT0crU+VZqhVpQrCVFYJJsenPMG FHP58vsrw2WvHWU10NLriA6Z2ciMZqjTaxOPrmelbj6smGFAECMDvBwyc/H2iWNGzQQzQ9EOi5xG silFld4utF4+gPYTjWUiwAiUFTvBOxPz+gCXQBV8sumPYkRYXPKyvNKpCrVGl7xgFSAbCBKaV2yk QM7WTLki7qRuqZ1WY1h1ZkTfWSn0Ql7zzdUBHSgME4oXhOuYNN2pyi57Ggt59K85mraM06jyWLNz ksJkfRA/V5wl9JfNU76+b1sz5OuO8qKTm2eez06hLb4qEGO7HU1xg5IoOx3tRH6eeCBMdmUIhJrc 9PQuvNOP0fLavz7Z6NTde+fKO03Pnr38mOrvyE65SQYm6856hefInVzZ6LVDY1eX0bimwuKyqbnj PXhHOsxxDWTLPl7xNeY3cpJn1wgrpY8HqI14p9VM74fSzMrthztrBbZcdjbYx2Q7ZQuwTtA2y4bK BsKNoUbL/8QAJRAAAgIBAwQCAwEAAAAAAAAAAAECERIDECEgMDFBEyIEMkAz/9oACAEBAAEFAuzf S3ShqZfyZSWqvG+pzDT82t81d9ptJZIySM0PUY5NuM5VlI+xyTRXKRSGXKl2vyXWitTlbM87LaQy jk+w4yZhKoeF2dZvFabxwZgUhnumUUTjRYn0afleOxqFl7WOzSkWWWTe3ub+vNaXK7U3Udr4QzTX 2oool52fI0aXbk8nXQ0R4nv5Z7k+SHD63JiZqSEtqMTwUNGZmSlxFD2rb3HldOpLnMtFCODIyHyL gfR6oXBwxoaNKXVq/u2WKTMxNPs30Xt7U+M0ZD21v2ra9vLWSHKRnIyZkSEzIyRmjNGcT5EfIPVZ 8kjORbbt5Gr+z8rxtDZ7WOXL5L3ojBLaSrayzyJEIJI10UVvfOZltQo/ZoihreLsfBJ2+SiPKRDf V/zjMckUUYGJi9vWlyanBDlahXTZ6USXC0lu+VT3irFGijFD0lInBx3ssQomJiShxtnRlk4L67vT 5+BC0UKNdPqX4+mx/jo+EWkhRooooo1YtHJVmnG5d2+zRgj40JUv7f/EAB8RAAICAgIDAQAAAAAA AAAAAAABAhEQEiAhEzAxQf/aAAgBAwEBPwHhfs6EPCl0dlD4pmzLGy8r0tFZXBIrjXOPzDiijVmp RTKZTNWaY/CA0au8OTsUneHdkbolKhS6LICSROdfDyMjOzUURySPIRlsSjY+s2+GzNpYoXRuPv3/ AP/EAB0RAAMBAAIDAQAAAAAAAAAAAAABERASQCAhMDH/2gAIAQIBAT8B6L2avGExE1/FMuvuXXly E1iQ1jxI4jRSkOI1BP4Q9ZT9J0P/xAAmEAAABgIBAwQDAAAAAAAAAAAAAREhMDEQIEECMkASIlBh UXGB/9oACAEBAAY/ApjPxfT96mPwQvKRqeLDKY7QZo+ecrigwT7jpVCEr8zcqoQ4kIEz4vLCxZ4X Y4i2OF/B6vgSkQoamTF+EkLBw07B4719wbbkUGIcCxZhMFqeqBDCdObgQskcX83fLmPUdnqYcN4S b1A5ScbKTQOGUv0O4x3bsL+a/8QAJhAAAwABBAICAgMBAQAAAAAAAAERIRAxQVEgYXGRMIGhsfDh 8f/aAAgBAQABPyFeaERZVevH1YqJ2qZ/FBea0ixHk38jaHokFg29yCnvCF1vvRMTYPmfsi6sfkxM iXJ/ZBpZRHU+BCW32HH4JDlC3LL2DfKlkJGnKQRyqegLE9jMdd7yZfivbDR+jLayyY2rAmMRhbJI TGi4Ogiku1H6CLZmPhkr0O1yENV+HuExVovApcIXBuT4uhVwFDL/AKLJq979iljsSIQXRvAn4mXd 0LAadl9D6Ip6+D6D8PZJexIWFgiphobTcz2meSJcaPzhW74EibD5jJaJ+zPgNoWxjvJihgMXPf4/ jeCCEEtDE94Ehog8jNkUURzR7D+bshSQQ0YObnSgnZZGMkRaE0yqf4oxwkY9MrMHtpYjGjq9YqPZ CdtkKHdyPgwPRCYgNQyeqWS7DIRF6jc3RjHpvDm/2SkJ8xdX0bg/RHpRvTZZE09nSiF0YoHngaao IfAxg16GE1NxP4m6vIkkex7E3BEGAg0h8EO5Ip8IblsCt2J2aJ9if2Z+T309Ilij+xjd0+EQW/6F MBQLxp/C0EC3V6Hnkwdbspkii6EFRV/0NtMGDl8lbde461sXsEFeX7GkIf50cDj1TIc3qQ/RDrQ3 mGwuB5EtjT/Q72Q7wUuTBeeH8k0ZX8kNLgjXY0cPkbdLC2pnzCE7gQn/AIgIKLCmi1nWRywtJsG2 U80likUvgYbblWQybP0YPYiodExN86dLZD9Fg+o63Z7mAXZ3Nm8arVdoTtmxpcwc2N/6EJ38k9Hq Fns6e7KqUXRn+sVvcf19leivRbYYvspi2gpN5JfLwU2Y29cn7BBikwTSCQpglXTHFyd6OMOP/Ak8 5E7FPAsNKI24VkkYhbdiU84QmiKVBjXhNGhl9C+h02V7FyXgtV4rwf43r//aAAwDAQACAAMAAAAQ lk9+m2efAMB6/wBaejVe4eniMXMIGJ+UsbG/nMmdjRVgyZmo5nHGJTQtXWYnXvVm1BYeKNQl+zyu eq5QVUuXc96uKfscLmxeFnYUL+1EHJ3xQQy4lUyFuy34IYv3XQ/wAI/P/8QAHhEBAQEAAgMBAQEA AAAAAAAAAQARECEgMUFhUXH/2gAIAQMBAT8QzkYjksd3cMeIa2CI+zqwvUwdPTdvsvrXbpbbwsB8 lrT7hHOI6WQ1t6zxyOotXiGEHiVlD3NllliSyJ5zmTffAAuDwC3uX87vyvyhvltaDWSdTN7GJMjq cdTdD8sgu1gNscqmdSERvSWrIbbD/uSuwju3vbO7COpFscZxv8v3ssi/gynW2WZr0v8AMtbZ4PBM eBx//8QAHBEAAwADAQEBAAAAAAAAAAAAAAERECAhUTFB/9oACAECAQE/EMwaEIfzDWz+HWcfok4J DanPCrzY6EqIkI33Q0VJ26pj6PItGfOjZcUuKxMoxZf3CbOlRUUpSlSwfBcZ7E4yJhJBpLhSEUoQ YkV+DbZdV4NRwNoJmVJgQF15i8KXEE8FwfHcUpqsMW//xAAnEAEAAwACAgIBBAMBAQAAAAABABEh MUFRYRBxkYGhwdGx4fDxIP/aAAgBAQABPxAQIEIMGoMXw9Pb1v4iZEyLGXKKNTzRcBVQUpfR/cuD uw4+KgXEiRlPEECBAgZOOoJcUtprnqFobanVBddVQf8AcW2e+Ip8FhrAJqtRm4shxrT21X59yoF+ eEE8kAOYtso7+hdfiCUgxYrPkECBAhMtynicmuWCVTCDkXS7+JvX7AfmDNo9K/iDwHRKqod/fiU/ c9R/j0X5/dlzf6oA2WMbCpGm0oqVQD2X+o15Z9v9xkNqQpziIUQk87o/i47FPxcXI/AQgQj8WHqP f5CKkEGO3QvnvOZSzC1+YiWqtcsIC3fcGUGeXqXE8JQfj6kN7Wuq6iJiPi8f2idBHuLwfpMp6qP5 jU2JRDpX/ZODGleCPf2fDH4IfAy2K0bKNgTkEW+eYfSLxTDsQa6cf6hXS7nZSq6I6hvmZ9j9EKun 7glJfagRXaJO4qIQuz1D2qLW8kbt+Zpc6bX3DXhsYsX4IRfhKHhIsN2o+YHUW+45uyeiOtL9sXI0 7IJD3V/8DL+bf9+YabAGBTMaAXZk7RfcPJ3XtmQNQAOidZ8GPwQgefhdB3kOulwV+jGuDju5YVOY MhgvqD/Mv1LnMtcuF4ILtKTagcZOSaF3OSAx+gCPwxj8jCWVEuLrkAVjEPU1jafcy2NXEVnrSYyz Ig1jr+F8dQLYZqZKgD0EOCZrnf4izuMWLLiiLwQnBe8gKkY5Y1y8Ewuaw7iFBsuL3ZYplM6n0Bhq CvN1G0ldRc5nISPKIYKlMAeciZD1xlo5iRMgYy4xpYanmNErrpm3R7YxLiq7t5hYW/Rl32r/ABHN ATR7lW6B8x/2p/EQ5x+BdSpUQbqeyZa3GUcaeonicy6cRfgpy+FTDVBBlvQErj/v8QUS0C87iiAB eOlzIt9+EwBto6Mp54l1LkVYq4SyxB9sPy9huYZZ3L+ZYwAxO2RA2AhUj4hx9gqFMV/SK4V+5qDk pPWXH2HmGNlJtgZnG19xAWnYtCuA6iSuz1f/AH+ouIZ2y+BXmiAaCx5Ib4+ub/zBlXN5UFMoe8Bg uYd7ANAe2ZLRfoh9mfNG/vAQNB7yCLXFwD/VTZ6muCv8zYlTpurgc6eYVfJ3/wCkvezlofxAFJfc uo2H3stmyXEH7sNq+fP8RLA4+Ibs3erL1nNSM/ENhC98cRxVwWjwxBzbAeJR2Rb+S3aBfN/cAaU7 vcuuECzwX/MEEvpbxNylJ23UtwqP+2VB/MqIGwb9TI4Rd8L+IB2EBddFqKILjdwA1V2ly9B+vmCV xCTYs6ftL3H1KBVyis2L2dlJq5cMowmtRf7Suihda8zg5a4wEHX8e8hOtxX9prVCFR1MyPuWdtEa dvpyGqy3VwbkH9EvC4v8jUQN+qcjEuqw9xeQ2+nQev7lNLxLG626hrHRLn1hgAquk5M/uWT7xRN+ K+CoMtVblTofHiJYCfZKF4vgj0sRK2669wOIEwT7/wBwiiljDuKRt7dQUlRG2uYrVaEr0WeZV6fR 4hL7RAWyj3GeFXhs5K/DxdfzCpt51FS9LC43kpblbOZRLT7CLtxVN59waLWvMMg2911Dtdll6Dy/ wd/uVTX26v8A71LeT+kP/WxyClGlnIGs6P6zqG+iCrn94ouXlIJvdOYo+jlM512+xX7Sv/aaxsIs 0SKEdLy9Jls5hcSp9/3E72V+ncol51GXKGJkPPT7EpC7Xl/9g5BqU4fb2wB1APEBAjaCxoWJKX7k BS/qNfpL7SHpplSgt8/7Qwpp0FEIz9u4P1L+YuXlOynpTzZHNn1ksUNcXkFtRjrj7gAOIyoMuyZK h8gPgIOYZLuXfgSpTKYU+Aepcb8BIvV4DYMMA6IkT5EIJ1/9CPyOvh5+GMTIhUfg/H//2Q== ------=_NextPart_000_005B_01C37B09.A55D1990--