Return-Path: <13brv3@bellsouth.net> Received: from imf20aec.mail.bellsouth.net ([205.152.59.68] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.1.3) with ESMTP id 2575904 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 09:56:11 -0400 Received: from rad ([68.212.14.21]) by imf20aec.mail.bellsouth.net (InterMail vM.5.01.05.27 201-253-122-126-127-20021220) with ESMTP id <20030911135609.TDSL1780.imf20aec.mail.bellsouth.net@rad> for ; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 09:56:09 -0400 From: "Russell Duffy" <13brv3@bellsouth.net> To: "'Rotary motors in aircraft'" Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: turbo wastegate requirements Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 08:56:09 -0500 Message-ID: <008201c3786c$744b7850$0201a8c0@rad> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0083_01C37842.8B757050" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0083_01C37842.8B757050 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable You seem to know a lot about turbos. Could you give some of us (eg me) a = bit of basic education?=20 =20 If you want to learn how turbos work, buy a stock 3rd gen RX-7 from an original owner who has no clue how it's supposed to work. The real = leaning begins when you add a boost gauge, and find that the sequential turbo = system isn't working. By the time you diagnose the many problems it will have, change about 76 hoses and a few solenoids, you will have graduated the = Mazda school of turbo education. =20 =20 Seriously, I'm no turbo expert. I have a good basic understanding of = how they work, but have a lot to learn when it comes to sizing calculations = and such. That sort of info is in the books that Todd mentioned, but I've = never had occasion to be forced to learn it. In my case, I wasn't considering = any turbo other than the stock Mazda unit, which has it's limitations for aircraft use, but it's cheap (used). There are certainly better = choices, but they cost a bunch of money. =20 =20 I'm confused by the mixed units. There's talk about x inches of = Manifold Air Pressure, then about so many PSI of boost. Are we talking about the = same thing using different units? =20 =20 I have to confess that I was incorrectly using these units myself until Tracy straightened me out. As I understand it, there are only two = units, which are inches of mercury, and psi. =20 =20 In the car world, a traditional vacuum/boost gauge will show a 0 point = in the middle, with vacuum to the left, measured in inches of mercury, and boost to the right, measured in psi. The vacuum range goes from 0 in = the middle, to 30 at the far left, and the boost range goes from 0 to = whatever they choose as the max reading to the right. This is a differential = gauge, meaning that the reading is relative to the outside pressure. In other words, when the engine is off, it will always read 0, regardless of what = the outside pressure is. I have one of these in the plane, because it will = show me how much boost the turbo is making relative to the outside air. This will help me keep the turbo within it's normal operating range.=20 =20 In the airplane world, I believe the tradition is to only look at = manifold absolute pressure (MAP) in inches of mercury. This is actually simpler. The EM-2 will give me this info (eventually ). This is the true indication of the engine's power setting. =20 =20 As for conversions, standard atmospheric pressure at sea level is 29.92 inches of mercury, roughly 30. Remember the vacuum gauge that went from = 30 to 0? It's the same range, and units, but turned around to show vacuum relative to the 0 starting point. The only conversion is to turn the numbers around. If someone says they have 20 inches of vacuum at sea = level, that's 10 inches of MAP. If they aren't at sea level, you have to = adjust by about 1 inch per 1000 feet. =20 =20 One psi is very close to 2 inches of mercury. So when I say I have 3 = psi of boost, that's the same as saying 6 inches of mercury. Since I'm at sea level, that's 36 inches MAP. Since I don't want to run my engine over = 36 inches MAP, I can run 3 psi at sea level. When I go to 10,000 ft, the outside pressure will be about 20 inches since you lose about 1 inch per thousand feet. Now, to normalize to sea level pressure of 30 inches, I = need to add 10 inches of boost, which will be 5 psi on the boost gauge. =20 =20 Make sense? Simple, but confusing. OK, now everyone check to make sure = I got it right :-) =20 =20 John Slade (all leather, no gas) =20 =20 I'm not sure I want to know what this means :-)=20 =20 Rusty (all gas, no leather) =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0083_01C37842.8B757050 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
You seem to = know a lot=20 about turbos. Could you give some of us (eg me) a bit of basic = education? 
 
If you want to = learn how=20 turbos work, buy a stock 3rd gen RX-7 from an original owner who has no = clue how=20 it's supposed to work.  The real leaning begins when you add a = boost gauge,=20 and find that the sequential turbo system isn't working.  By = the time=20 you diagnose the many problems it will have, change about 76 hoses and a = few=20 solenoids, you will have graduated the Mazda school of turbo=20 education.   
 
Seriously, I'm = no turbo=20 expert.  I have a good basic understanding of how they work, but = have a lot=20 to learn when it comes to sizing calculations and such.  That sort = of info=20 is in the books that Todd mentioned, but I've never had occasion to be = forced to=20 learn it.  In my case, I wasn't considering any turbo other than = the stock=20 Mazda unit, which has it's limitations for aircraft use, but it's cheap=20 (used).  There are certainly better choices, but they cost a = bunch of=20 money. 
 
 I'm confused by the mixed units. = There's=20 talk about x inches of Manifold Air Pressure, then about so many PSI of = boost.=20 Are we talking about the same thing using different units?  
 
I have to=20 confess that I was incorrectly using these units myself until Tracy = straightened=20 me out.  As I understand it, there are only two units, which are = inches of=20 mercury, and psi. =20
&= nbsp;
In the car=20 world, a traditional vacuum/boost gauge will show a 0 point in the = middle, with=20 vacuum to the left, measured in inches of mercury, and boost to the = right,=20 measured in psi.  The vacuum range goes from 0 in the middle, to 30 = at the=20 far left, and the boost range goes from 0 to whatever they choose = as the=20 max reading to the right.  This is a differential gauge, = meaning that=20 the reading is relative to the outside pressure.  In other words, = when the=20 engine is off, it will always read 0, regardless of what the outside = pressure=20 is.  I have one of these in the plane, because it will show me = how=20 much boost the turbo is making relative to the outside = air.  This will=20 help me keep the turbo within it's normal operating=20 range. 
&= nbsp;
In the=20 airplane world, I believe the tradition is to only look at manifold = absolute pressure (MAP) in inches of mercury.  This is = actually=20 simpler.  The EM-2 will give me this info (eventually=20 <g>).  This is the true indication of the engine's = power=20 setting. =20  
&= nbsp;
As for=20 conversions, standard atmospheric pressure at sea level is 29.92 inches = of=20 mercury, roughly 30.  Remember the vacuum gauge that went from 30 = to=20 0?  It's the same range, and units, but turned around to show = vacuum=20 relative to the 0 starting point.  The only conversion is to = turn the=20 numbers around.  If someone says they have 20 inches of vacuum = at sea=20 level, that's 10 inches of MAP.  If they aren't at sea level, you = have to=20 adjust by about 1 inch per 1000=20 feet.  =
&= nbsp;
One psi is=20 very close to 2 inches of mercury.  So when I say I have 3 psi of = boost,=20 that's the same as saying 6 inches of mercury.  Since I'm at = sea=20 level, that's 36 inches MAP.  Since I don't want to run my engine = over 36=20 inches MAP, I can run 3 psi at sea level.  When I go to 10,000 ft, = the=20 outside pressure will be about 20 inches since you lose about 1 inch per = thousand feet.  Now, to normalize to sea level pressure of 30 = inches,=20 I need to add 10 inches of boost, which will be 5 psi on the boost=20 gauge. =20
&= nbsp;
Make=20 sense?  Simple, but confusing.  OK, now everyone check to make = sure I=20 got it right=20  :-)  
&= nbsp;
John Slade (all leather, no gas)  
 
I'm not sure I=20 want to know what this means = :-) 
 
Rusty (all = gas, no=20 leather)
 
 
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