X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from m12.lax.untd.com ([64.136.30.75] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.0.4) with SMTP id 880475 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 13 Dec 2005 12:28:57 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.136.30.75; envelope-from=alwick@juno.com Received: from m12.lax.untd.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by m12.lax.untd.com with SMTP id AABB38BEEAH7ZESA for (sender ); Tue, 13 Dec 2005 09:27:32 -0800 (PST) Received: (from alwick@juno.com) by m12.lax.untd.com (jqueuemail) id LB49MPMT; Tue, 13 Dec 2005 09:27:00 PST To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 08:20:56 -0800 Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: oil cooler opening Message-ID: <20051213.092647.2164.9.alwick@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 5.0.33 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=--__JNP_000_3d64.5b26.35ce X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 8-6,10-11,14-23,25,35-36,41-50,58-67,71-81,86-92,93-32767 From: al p Wick X-ContentStamp: 4:6:460091300 X-MAIL-INFO:315f5f0f1e8e27aea357d70fced77abe5b936ad7ca97dbde1eca6a93ca6fcaea8b2b73b75fc30f4f0ff31ec77ae3ebc7ae8e7f2b8afa9e57270aebd703bf02024a1bfe434e8f2b43671a3bbadbbfba3bbe7aee8fa73713ef8777876a33ce5e87cfbb2aaa3333aaa31a2a63932e3ebe979a4f73cb6a1a6a1ea7c33af34a63935fc7c7178b0b4f1f8eeaeb X-UNTD-OriginStamp: L941HVjjYzDhN3itp//mkLXma4Paa4cRzQPOE33ia4vTJr6JGpLuyg== X-UNTD-Peer-Info: 127.0.0.1|localhost|m12.lax.untd.com|alwick@juno.com This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ----__JNP_000_3d64.5b26.35ce Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit FWIW, I had experience similar to Eds. I'd too heard that exit duct was important, so fashioned a nice one for radiator exit air. It caused oil temps to rise (I don't need oil cooler, just allow rad air to flow over pan). and had no measurable effect on rad air flow. So I chucked it. So I'd say test the concept, but find a way to measure the air flow in case it has negative effect. I use barometric pressure sensor to compare pressure in front of rad, to behind. -al wick Artificial intelligence in cockpit, Cozy IV powered by stock Subaru 2.5 N9032U 200+ hours on engine/airframe from Portland, Oregon Prop construct, Subaru install, Risk assessment, Glass panel design info: http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.html On Tue, 13 Dec 2005 10:19:44 -0500 "Ed Anderson" writes: Yes, John, in the boest of all possible worlds a duct exiting the cooler would undoubtedly help. In fact, I attempted that with my two GM radiator cores - BUT, by the time I had created the two fiberglass ducts the constraints on their flow mandated by things like engine, mounts, exhaust, etc, adversely affected the airflow to such a degree that they actually hurt the cooling (in my case). If you have plenty of room and/or a location for your cooler where you could avoid the twists and turns then it may be worthwhile. I have a nose gear, so no way could I run a duct straight back from my cooler. Also having a "plugs up" installation puts my exhaust on the bottom also in the way. In the long run, the oil temps are just fine dumping the exit air under the cowling. That said - if you can round (2-3" dia) (fiberglass? PVC pipe?) the bottom edge of your firewall (where the air exists) that reportedly helps considerably by making it easier for air to exit the cowl. Ed A ----- Original Message ----- From: John Downing To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2005 9:54 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: oil cooler opening Ed; Thanks for the numbers. Last night I read the article in kit planes, Oct 99, by Barnaby Wainfan on duct work and his article entitled wind tunnel said that you need a duct behind the coolers to offset the drag of the air in the cowling. Has anyone done any practical applications on this (for Mazdas), or is the air from the coolant and oil radiators just dumped into the cowling. My very limited understanding of this, tells me that drag means more fuel needed. Any and all comments welcome. JohnD From the farm ----- Original Message ----- From: Ed Anderson To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Monday, December 12, 2005 9:20 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: oil cooler opening John, The area of my oil cooler opening is 22-24 sq inches about 10" wide and 2 1/2" high. I don't have the exact dimension handy, but its opening is approx 3-4" back of the prop flange. So far its worked fine for about 5 RVs that I am aware of using this approach. Ed ----- Original Message ----- From: John Downing To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Monday, December 12, 2005 5:04 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] oil cooler opening Ed; What is the opening area and the distance behind the prop for the oil cooler inlet. I'm wondering if the opening needs to be as near the prop as the inlets for the radiators. Thanks in advance. JohnD Had to cancel the insurance on the ole Colt today and put comp. on - snowed in for the winter in northern Michigan. -al wick Artificial intelligence in cockpit, Cozy IV powered by stock Subaru 2.5 N9032U 200+ hours on engine/airframe from Portland, Oregon Prop construct, Subaru install, Risk assessment, Glass panel design info: http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.html ----__JNP_000_3d64.5b26.35ce Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
FWIW, I had experience similar to Eds. I'd too heard that exit duct = was=20 important, so fashioned a nice one for radiator exit air. It caused oil = temps to=20 rise (I don't need oil cooler, just allow rad air to flow over pan). and = had no=20 measurable effect on rad air flow. So I chucked it.
 
So I'd say test the concept, but find a way to measure the air flow in= case=20 it has negative effect. I use barometric pressure sensor to compare = pressure in=20 front of rad, to behind.
 

-al wick
Artificial intelligence in cockpit, Cozy IV powered by= =20 stock Subaru 2.5
N9032U 200+ hours on engine/airframe from Portland,=20 Oregon
Prop construct, Subaru install, Risk assessment, Glass panel = design=20 info:
http:= //www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.html
 
On Tue, 13 Dec 2005 10:19:44 -0500 "Ed Anderson" <eanderson@carolina.rr.com>= =20 writes:
Yes, John,   in the boest of all = possible=20 worlds a duct exiting the cooler would undoubtedly help.  In fact, I= =20 attempted that with my two GM radiator cores - BUT, by the time I had = created=20 the two fiberglass ducts the constraints on their flow mandated by things= like=20 engine, mounts, exhaust, etc, adversely affected the airflow to such a = degree=20 that they actually hurt the cooling (in my case).  If you have = plenty of=20 room and/or a location  for your cooler where you could avoid the = twists=20 and turns then it may be worthwhile.  I have a nose gear, so no way = could=20 I run a duct straight back from my cooler.  Also having a "plugs up"= =20 installation puts my exhaust on the bottom also in the way.  =20
 
In the long run, the oil temps are just fine = dumping the=20 exit air under the cowling.  That said - if you can round (2-3" dia)= =20 (fiberglass? PVC pipe?) the bottom edge of your firewall (where the air=20 exists)   that reportedly helps considerably by making it= =20 easier for air to exit the cowl.
 
Ed A 
----- Original Message -----
= From:=20 John=20 Downing
To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20
Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2005= 9:54=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: oil = cooler=20 opening

Ed;  Thanks for the numbers. = ; Last=20 night I read the article in kit planes, Oct 99, by Barnaby Wainfan on = duct=20 work and his article entitled wind tunnel said that you need a duct = behind=20 the coolers to offset the drag of the air in the cowling.  Has = anyone=20 done any practical applications on this (for Mazdas), or is the air = from the=20 coolant and oil radiators just dumped into the cowling.  My very=20 limited understanding of this, tells me that drag means more fuel=20 needed.  Any and all comments welcome.  JohnD   = From the=20 farm
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Ed Anderson
To: Rotary motors in aircraft= =20
Sent: Monday, December 12, = 2005 9:20=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: oil = cooler=20 opening

John,
 
The area of my oil cooler opening is 22-24 sq= inches=20 about 10" wide and 2 1/2" high.  I don't have the exact = dimension=20 handy, but its opening is approx 3-4" back of the prop flange.  = So=20 far its worked fine for about 5 RVs that I am aware of using this=20 approach.
 
Ed
 
----- Original Message -----
= From:=20 John Downing
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20
Sent: Monday, December 12, = 2005=20 5:04 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] oil = cooler=20 opening

Ed;  What is the opening area= and the=20 distance behind the prop for the oil cooler inlet.  I'm = wondering=20 if the opening needs to be as near the prop as the inlets for the=20 radiators.  Thanks in advance. =20 JohnD       Had to cancel the = insurance on=20 the ole Colt today and put comp. on - snowed in for the winter in=20 northern Michigan.
 

-al wick
Artificial intelligence in= =20 cockpit, Cozy IV powered by stock Subaru 2.5
N9032U 200+ hours on=20 engine/airframe from Portland, Oregon
Prop construct, Subaru install, = Risk=20 assessment, Glass panel design=20 info:
http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.html
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