X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from [24.25.9.102] (HELO ms-smtp-03-eri0.southeast.rr.com) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.3.6) with ESMTP id 613022 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 23 Jul 2005 20:01:10 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=24.25.9.102; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Received: from edward2 (cpe-065-188-083-049.carolina.res.rr.com [65.188.83.49]) by ms-smtp-03-eri0.southeast.rr.com (8.12.10/8.12.7) with SMTP id j6O00MY5023950 for ; Sat, 23 Jul 2005 20:00:24 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <002901c58fe2$c403ee60$2402a8c0@edward2> From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Lyc debugging / Strange Aerodynamics Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 20:00:55 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0026_01C58FC1.3CAFA010" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0026_01C58FC1.3CAFA010 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Your airspeed indicator has a bug stuck in it? I am surprised, I get = about a 1-2 mph difference in stall between clean and full flaps - could = be my indicator {:>). Certainly an impressive change, I agree!=20 Since we are taught its the airflow angle of attack relative to the = airfoil that determines when the air foil stalls, it sounds like the = tips have somehow affected the airflow across the wing such that flaps = have no effect on the airflow angle of attack and therefore stall speed. Let us know when you find out Ed A. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Tracy Crook=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2005 6:50 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Lyc debugging / Strange Aerodynamics More Data Captain! The CHT data is not any good for diagnostic purposes in this scenario. = If you had fuel flow info as someone asked about, that would be good. = You didn't mention EGT. Got any? How about manifold pressure? Not = likely to have this on a Lyc, but mixture info from O2 sensor would be = even better. I won't leave home without it after getting used to it. Now for my mystery of the day. Was doing more tests on coil / = alternator cooling & wingtip testing today and got around to stall = tests. I was pleasantly surprised to find that my clean stall speed was = down a full 5 MPH. That is HUGE, especially from such a simple mod. = Repeated the test multiple times, accelerated, power on, idle, 1 mph/ 10 = second deceleration, the works. The change was real. Then I tested = 1/2 & full flap stall expecting that I would see the usual 4-5 mph drop = in stall speed. Absolutely no difference. Stall was the same clean or = dirty. Anyone care to take a stab at this? Tracy (still not happy with coil temps) ----- Original Message -----=20 From: kevin lane=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2005 4:33 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Lycoming debugging test - -HELP! I realize that this isn't exactly the right forum, but you guys seem = to have excellent debugging skills. my local RV group is totally = worthless ("I find the carnauba wax doesn't show fingerprints as much as = the....")(except Mike!) the on-field mechanics are sick of me coming = by. my O-320 RV-6A is having RAG (rpm attention getter) problems. = it runs fine until about 300' on take-off, then the rpm's drop to like = 1700 (from 2200). switching mags to electronic ignition(Rose) makes no = difference. mixture no diff. pulling the throttle it will seem to run = fine at 1700rpm. I have 4 new cyls that I am attempting to break in. = ground run ups can only go like 2 minutes before CHT's exceed 400 = degrees. I discovered I can get the rpm drop on the ground if I run it = a minute or so full power. cht's will typically approach 415 degrees = when the drop takes place. I don't know if the temp is significant or = not, it does seem that way. I have a brand new slick left mag. rose = checked the electronic ignition and could find nothing wrong, even put = it in an oven to test. I installed a new carb since the old one showed = signs of leakage (and I'm at whits end). no change. my fuel pressure = has been showing 8psi this last year, up from 6 psi when originally = installed.(no idea why) I installed a pressure regulator in-line which = works like a charm. I can dial whatever pressure I like. 2 psi makes = no difference. I bypassed the mechanical fuel pump and ran it just on = the facet electric. 2 psi, no difference. I discovered that you can run = the carb for maybe 30 secs with no fuel pressure while it burns off the = bowl gas. premier engines suggested induction leak making the engine run = lean. no leaks detected cold or hot engine. (pressurized intake with = vacuum, sprayed soapy water) if the engine didn't run right to start with then many = explanations would hold. but it runs fine for several minutes. it runs = the same under mag or electronic ignition both before and after the = problem kicks in. everyone really wants to blame the rose ignition, but = I'm not seeing any connection. with such a quick run-up my oil temp = barely registers, so I doubt parts are seizing. I have new mineral oil = in it for breakin right now. there is a bit of MMO in the fuel too I = believe, left over from a mechanics "what the hell" attempt from way = back. my cyls are all new, rebuilts, so no valve problems. I checked = the push rod lengths when I reinstalled them. the engine isn't missing = when the problems occurs, it simply won't run faster and it seems to = prefer the throttle pulled back to match the rpm it is putting out. I = can't figure out any more lean mixture scenarios to try. the new carb = runs just like the old one did. I recently replaced the mag harness = with a much newer, used one. I tested it and it was fine. the plugs = are all new, but again, no diff between mag and elec ignition. if I = flip the ignition to R and shut off the elect ig then the engine quits = as would be expected, no wiring problems. fuel, spark, air, timing, that's all there is. this damn = lycoming lawn mower has me stumped. my engine has been running fine up = until this (hey, we all have "cracked" cylinders, get out your = microscope and look!). you guys have any ideas? Kevin Lane Portland, OR e-mail-> n3773@comcast.net ----- Original ------=_NextPart_000_0026_01C58FC1.3CAFA010 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Your airspeed indicator has a bug stuck = in=20 it?  I am surprised, I get about a 1-2 mph difference in stall = between=20 clean and full flaps - could be my indicator {:>).  Certainly an = impressive change, I agree! 
 
 Since we are taught its the = airflow angle of=20 attack relative to the airfoil that determines when the air foil = stalls, it=20 sounds like the tips have somehow affected the airflow across the wing = such that=20 flaps have no effect on the airflow angle of attack and therefore stall=20 speed.
 
Let us know when you find = out
 
Ed A.
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Tracy = Crook
Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2005 = 6:50=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Lyc = debugging /=20 Strange Aerodynamics

More Data Captain!
 
The CHT data is not any good for diagnostic purposes in this=20 scenario.  If you had fuel flow info as someone asked about, that = would=20 be good.  You didn't mention EGT.  Got any? How about = manifold=20 pressure?   Not likely to have this on a Lyc, but = mixture info=20 from O2 sensor would be even better.  I won't leave home = without it=20 after getting used to it.
 
Now for my mystery of the day. Was doing more tests on coil / = alternator=20 cooling & wingtip testing today and got around to stall = tests.  I was=20 pleasantly surprised to find that my clean stall speed was down a full = 5=20 MPH.  That is HUGE,  especially from such a simple = mod.  =20 Repeated the test multiple times, accelerated, power on, idle, 1 mph/ = 10=20 second deceleration, the works.  The change was real.   = Then I=20 tested 1/2 & full flap stall expecting that I would see the usual = 4-5 mph=20 drop in stall speed.  Absolutely no difference.  Stall = was the=20 same clean or dirty.
 
Anyone care to take a stab at this?
 
Tracy  (still not happy with coil temps)
 
----- Original Message -----
From: kevin lane
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20
Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2005 = 4:33=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Lycoming = debugging=20 test - -HELP!

I realize that this isn't = exactly the=20 right forum, but you guys seem to have excellent debugging = skills.  my=20 local RV group is totally worthless ("I find the carnauba wax = doesn't show=20 fingerprints as much as the....")(except Mike!)  the on-field = mechanics=20 are sick of me coming by.
    my = O-320 RV-6A is=20 having RAG (rpm attention getter) problems.  it runs fine until = about=20 300' on take-off, then the rpm's drop to like 1700 (from = 2200). =20 switching mags to electronic ignition(Rose) makes no = difference. =20 mixture no diff.  pulling the throttle it will seem to run = fine at=20 1700rpm.  I have 4 new cyls that I am attempting to break = in. =20 ground run ups can only go like 2 minutes before CHT's exceed 400=20 degrees.  I discovered I can get the rpm drop on the ground if = I run it=20 a minute or so full power.  cht's will typically approach 415 = degrees=20 when the drop takes place.  I don't know if the temp is = significant or=20 not, it does seem that way.  I have a brand new slick left = mag. =20 rose checked the electronic ignition and could find nothing wrong, = even put=20 it in an oven to test.  I installed a new carb since the old = one showed=20 signs of leakage (and I'm at whits end).  no change.  my = fuel=20 pressure has been showing 8psi this last year, up from 6 psi when = originally=20 installed.(no idea why)  I installed a pressure regulator = in-line which=20 works like a charm.  I can dial whatever pressure I like.  = 2 psi=20 makes no difference.  I bypassed the mechanical fuel pump and = ran it=20 just on the facet electric.  2 psi, no difference. I = discovered=20 that you can run the carb for maybe 30 secs with no fuel pressure = while it=20 burns off the bowl gas. premier engines suggested induction leak = making the=20 engine run lean.  no leaks detected cold or hot engine. = (pressurized=20 intake with vacuum, sprayed soapy water)
    if the = engine=20 didn't run right to start with then many explanations would = hold.  but=20 it runs fine for several minutes.  it runs the same under mag = or=20 electronic ignition both before and after the problem kicks = in. =20 everyone really wants to blame the rose ignition, but I'm not seeing = any=20 connection.  with such a quick run-up my oil temp barely = registers, so=20 I doubt parts are seizing.  I have new mineral oil in it for = breakin=20 right now.  there is a bit of MMO in the fuel too I believe, = left over=20 from a mechanics "what the hell" attempt from way back.  my = cyls are=20 all new, rebuilts, so no valve problems.  I checked the push = rod=20 lengths when I reinstalled them.  the engine isn't missing = when=20 the problems occurs, it simply won't run faster and it seems to = prefer the=20 throttle pulled back to match the rpm it is putting out.  I = can't=20 figure out any more lean mixture scenarios to try.  the new = carb runs=20 just like the old one did.  I recently replaced the mag harness = with a=20 much newer, used one.  I tested it and it was fine.  the = plugs are=20 all new, but again, no diff between mag and elec ignition.  if = I flip=20 the ignition to R and shut off the elect ig then the engine quits as = would=20 be expected, no wiring problems.
    fuel, = spark, air,=20 timing, that's all there is.  this damn lycoming lawn mower has = me=20 stumped.  my engine has been running fine up until this (hey, = we all=20 have "cracked" cylinders, get out your microscope and look!).  = you guys=20 have any ideas?
Kevin Lane  Portland, OR
e-mail-> n3773@comcast.net
----- Original=20
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