X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from [64.4.51.80] (HELO hotmail.com) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.3.6) with ESMTP id 612986 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 23 Jul 2005 18:51:07 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.4.51.80; envelope-from=lors01@msn.com Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 23 Jul 2005 15:50:23 -0700 Message-ID: Received: from 64.4.51.220 by BAY107-DAV8.phx.gbl with DAV; Sat, 23 Jul 2005 22:50:23 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [64.4.51.220] X-Originating-Email: [lors01@msn.com] X-Sender: lors01@msn.com From: "Tracy Crook" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Lyc debugging / Strange Aerodynamics Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 18:50:16 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0057_01C58FB7.5E12BA80" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: MSN 9 X-MimeOLE: Produced By MSN MimeOLE V9.10.0011.1703 Seal-Send-Time: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 18:50:17 -0400 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 23 Jul 2005 22:50:23.0634 (UTC) FILETIME=[E9189F20:01C58FD8] This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0057_01C58FB7.5E12BA80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable More Data Captain! The CHT data is not any good for diagnostic purposes in this scenario. = If you had fuel flow info as someone asked about, that would be good. = You didn't mention EGT. Got any? How about manifold pressure? Not = likely to have this on a Lyc, but mixture info from O2 sensor would be = even better. I won't leave home without it after getting used to it. Now for my mystery of the day. Was doing more tests on coil / alternator = cooling & wingtip testing today and got around to stall tests. I was = pleasantly surprised to find that my clean stall speed was down a full 5 = MPH. That is HUGE, especially from such a simple mod. Repeated the = test multiple times, accelerated, power on, idle, 1 mph/ 10 second = deceleration, the works. The change was real. Then I tested 1/2 & = full flap stall expecting that I would see the usual 4-5 mph drop in = stall speed. Absolutely no difference. Stall was the same clean or = dirty. Anyone care to take a stab at this? Tracy (still not happy with coil temps) ----- Original Message -----=20 From: kevin lane=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2005 4:33 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Lycoming debugging test - -HELP! I realize that this isn't exactly the right forum, but you guys seem = to have excellent debugging skills. my local RV group is totally = worthless ("I find the carnauba wax doesn't show fingerprints as much as = the....")(except Mike!) the on-field mechanics are sick of me coming = by. my O-320 RV-6A is having RAG (rpm attention getter) problems. it = runs fine until about 300' on take-off, then the rpm's drop to like 1700 = (from 2200). switching mags to electronic ignition(Rose) makes no = difference. mixture no diff. pulling the throttle it will seem to run = fine at 1700rpm. I have 4 new cyls that I am attempting to break in. = ground run ups can only go like 2 minutes before CHT's exceed 400 = degrees. I discovered I can get the rpm drop on the ground if I run it = a minute or so full power. cht's will typically approach 415 degrees = when the drop takes place. I don't know if the temp is significant or = not, it does seem that way. I have a brand new slick left mag. rose = checked the electronic ignition and could find nothing wrong, even put = it in an oven to test. I installed a new carb since the old one showed = signs of leakage (and I'm at whits end). no change. my fuel pressure = has been showing 8psi this last year, up from 6 psi when originally = installed.(no idea why) I installed a pressure regulator in-line which = works like a charm. I can dial whatever pressure I like. 2 psi makes = no difference. I bypassed the mechanical fuel pump and ran it just on = the facet electric. 2 psi, no difference. I discovered that you can run = the carb for maybe 30 secs with no fuel pressure while it burns off the = bowl gas. premier engines suggested induction leak making the engine run = lean. no leaks detected cold or hot engine. (pressurized intake with = vacuum, sprayed soapy water) if the engine didn't run right to start with then many = explanations would hold. but it runs fine for several minutes. it runs = the same under mag or electronic ignition both before and after the = problem kicks in. everyone really wants to blame the rose ignition, but = I'm not seeing any connection. with such a quick run-up my oil temp = barely registers, so I doubt parts are seizing. I have new mineral oil = in it for breakin right now. there is a bit of MMO in the fuel too I = believe, left over from a mechanics "what the hell" attempt from way = back. my cyls are all new, rebuilts, so no valve problems. I checked = the push rod lengths when I reinstalled them. the engine isn't missing = when the problems occurs, it simply won't run faster and it seems to = prefer the throttle pulled back to match the rpm it is putting out. I = can't figure out any more lean mixture scenarios to try. the new carb = runs just like the old one did. I recently replaced the mag harness = with a much newer, used one. I tested it and it was fine. the plugs = are all new, but again, no diff between mag and elec ignition. if I = flip the ignition to R and shut off the elect ig then the engine quits = as would be expected, no wiring problems. fuel, spark, air, timing, that's all there is. this damn lycoming = lawn mower has me stumped. my engine has been running fine up until = this (hey, we all have "cracked" cylinders, get out your microscope and = look!). you guys have any ideas? Kevin Lane Portland, OR e-mail-> n3773@comcast.net ----- Original ------=_NextPart_000_0057_01C58FB7.5E12BA80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
More Data Captain!
 
The CHT data is not any good for diagnostic purposes in this=20 scenario.  If you had fuel flow info as someone asked about, that = would be=20 good.  You didn't mention EGT.  Got any? How about = manifold=20 pressure?   Not likely to have this on a Lyc, but mixture = info=20 from O2 sensor would be even better.  I won't leave home = without it=20 after getting used to it.
 
Now for my mystery of the day. Was doing more tests on coil / = alternator=20 cooling & wingtip testing today and got around to stall tests.  = I was=20 pleasantly surprised to find that my clean stall speed was down a full 5 = MPH.  That is HUGE,  especially from such a simple = mod.  =20 Repeated the test multiple times, accelerated, power on, idle, 1 mph/ 10 = second=20 deceleration, the works.  The change was real.   Then I = tested=20 1/2 & full flap stall expecting that I would see the usual 4-5 mph = drop in=20 stall speed.  Absolutely no difference.  Stall was the = same clean=20 or dirty.
 
Anyone care to take a stab at this?
 
Tracy  (still not happy with coil temps)
 
----- Original Message -----
From: kevin lane
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2005 = 4:33=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Lycoming = debugging=20 test - -HELP!

I realize that this isn't = exactly the=20 right forum, but you guys seem to have excellent debugging = skills.  my=20 local RV group is totally worthless ("I find the carnauba wax doesn't = show=20 fingerprints as much as the....")(except Mike!)  the on-field = mechanics=20 are sick of me coming by.
    my O-320 = RV-6A is=20 having RAG (rpm attention getter) problems.  it runs fine until = about=20 300' on take-off, then the rpm's drop to like 1700 (from 2200). =20 switching mags to electronic ignition(Rose) makes no difference.  = mixture=20 no diff.  pulling the throttle it will seem to run fine at=20 1700rpm.  I have 4 new cyls that I am attempting to break = in. =20 ground run ups can only go like 2 minutes before CHT's exceed 400=20 degrees.  I discovered I can get the rpm drop on the ground if I = run it a=20 minute or so full power.  cht's will typically approach 415 = degrees when=20 the drop takes place.  I don't know if the temp is significant or = not, it=20 does seem that way.  I have a brand new slick left mag.  = rose=20 checked the electronic ignition and could find nothing wrong, even put = it in=20 an oven to test.  I installed a new carb since the old one showed = signs=20 of leakage (and I'm at whits end).  no change.  my fuel = pressure has=20 been showing 8psi this last year, up from 6 psi when originally = installed.(no=20 idea why)  I installed a pressure regulator in-line which works = like a=20 charm.  I can dial whatever pressure I like.  2 psi makes no = difference.  I bypassed the mechanical fuel pump and ran it just = on the=20 facet electric.  2 psi, no difference. I discovered that you = can run=20 the carb for maybe 30 secs with no fuel pressure while it burns off = the bowl=20 gas. premier engines suggested induction leak making the engine run=20 lean.  no leaks detected cold or hot engine. (pressurized intake = with=20 vacuum, sprayed soapy water)
    if the = engine didn't=20 run right to start with then many explanations would hold.  but = it runs=20 fine for several minutes.  it runs the same under mag or = electronic=20 ignition both before and after the problem kicks in.  everyone = really=20 wants to blame the rose ignition, but I'm not seeing any = connection. =20 with such a quick run-up my oil temp barely registers, so I doubt = parts are=20 seizing.  I have new mineral oil in it for breakin right = now.  there=20 is a bit of MMO in the fuel too I believe, left over from a mechanics = "what=20 the hell" attempt from way back.  my cyls are all new, rebuilts, = so no=20 valve problems.  I checked the push rod lengths when I = reinstalled=20 them.  the engine isn't missing when the problems occurs, it = simply won't=20 run faster and it seems to prefer the throttle pulled back to match = the rpm it=20 is putting out.  I can't figure out any more lean mixture = scenarios to=20 try.  the new carb runs just like the old one did.  I = recently=20 replaced the mag harness with a much newer, used one.  I tested = it and it=20 was fine.  the plugs are all new, but again, no diff between mag = and elec=20 ignition.  if I flip the ignition to R and shut off the elect ig = then the=20 engine quits as would be expected, no wiring problems.
    fuel, = spark, air,=20 timing, that's all there is.  this damn lycoming lawn mower has = me=20 stumped.  my engine has been running fine up until this (hey, we = all have=20 "cracked" cylinders, get out your microscope and look!).  you = guys have=20 any ideas?
Kevin Lane  Portland, OR
e-mail-> n3773@comcast.net
----- Original=20
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