X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mtiwmhc12.worldnet.att.net ([204.127.131.116] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.3.6) with ESMTP id 612220 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 20:13:09 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=204.127.131.116; envelope-from=keltro@att.net Received: from 204.127.135.75 ([204.127.135.75]) by worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc12) with SMTP id <2005072300122511200a8cuae>; Sat, 23 Jul 2005 00:12:25 +0000 Received: from [209.247.222.100] by 204.127.135.75; Sat, 23 Jul 2005 00:12:24 +0000 From: keltro@att.net (Kelly Troyer) To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Subject: Re: TES "O" Rings Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 00:12:24 +0000 Message-Id: <072320050012.10968.42E18B680007B7DD00002AD82160466648019D9B040A05@att.net> X-Mailer: AT&T Message Center Version 1 (Feb 14 2005) X-Authenticated-Sender: a2VsdHJvQGF0dC5uZXQ= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_10968_1122077544_0" --NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_10968_1122077544_0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_10968_1122077544_1" --NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_10968_1122077544_1 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Group, Like George says in post below I will ship a side housing to "Creavey" as soon as I can get it boxed up so we can settle once and for all what the correct diameters and cross sections are needed for the 13B coolent O-ring seals........With any luck the Renesis seals will be the same !! I know some of the group will like to see the last of the posts about TES seals !! -- Kelly Troyer Dyke Delta/13B/RD1C/EC2 From: Kelly Troyer [mailto:keltro@att.net] Sent: Friday, July 22, 2005 11:05 AM To: Jeff Chrysler Subject: Rotary Engine Coolent Seals Jeff, I know you are probably sick and tired of dealing with us rotary guys and I want you to know that we all appreciate your help......I have heard nothing but good things from those that have contacted you about our rotary engine O-ring problem........Our goal is to make a safer and longer lasting engine utilizing your Teflon-Silicon seals. That being said I have a proposition for you that should settle once and for all the question of size for the rotary engine coolent seals......If I send one of the rotary side housings that has the seal grooves to you for inspection and evaluation as to what diameter and cross section of seals are needed would that be agreeable to you ?? I will pay shipping to and from as I will need the housing back..... I believe that once we have confirmed the sizes of seals that you will get increased orders and eliminate all the hassle and E-mails from guys like me...... Thank You -- Kelly Troyer -------------- Original message from "George Lendich" : -------------- Just for reference guys, Most fluid o-ring seals fill between 75-85% of the groove WHEN COMPRESSED. That means that the o-ring will be above the groove about 25-30% before assembly. The diameter of the o-ring will USUALLY leave about 30-40% of the width of the groove visible. To my eye this has always looked like too much free space, but like many other engineering items has been established by breaking parts like in the picture. If you live in the USA you can get a phamplet circular from Parker which shows the gland (the o-ring groove) sizes for most standard size o-rings. usually available for free. They have a larger catalog that shows how to calculate the o-ring and groove sizes. This is avalable even from the cheapest sales shops for a few bucks. Highly recomended if you plant to size o-rings. There are signifigant differences between TYPES of groove seals as well; the rotor housings are a static face gland. Parts that move or rotate have different sized grooves and more importantly different surfaces finishes. (roughness or the lack of it!) Bill Jepson Bill, You stole my thunder, I went out yesterday and bought this machining guide to cutting "O" ring grooves, then set down and worked through some of the dimensions suggested - they came out roughly, that the "O" rings have to be between 70 to 80 % of the groove - very similar to your recommendation above and I, by no means, worked through all the 'Static Application' sizes. Interestingly our cross section range ( .93 to .98) is approximately 80% (or 1: .8). I know you have provided this info before but often we don't use information provided, until we need it and quite obviously we need it now. I think someone in the past suggested that silicone can swell up to 20% of it's original size - so that fits well into our calculations. Given my previous numbers that suggests sizes .093 for the inner or even a little less and no more that .1 for the outer - now given the cross section of the "O" ring varies (+ or _ .05), I think .98 would be the most appropriate size to use. The only other problem is diameter of the "O" ring and Kelly has kindly volunteered to supply a housing to Creavy for physical assessment -Thanks Kelly!! I did suggest to Jeff that more builders were likely to use these "O" rings if they knew exactly what size to use. I'm actually using Cosmo Rotor housings with the grooves in the Rotor Housings for the single rotor, as I'm using 12A endhousings - in the event anyone was confused with my photo. George ( down under) --NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_10968_1122077544_1 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Group,
    Like George says in post below I will ship a side housing to "Creavey"
as soon as I can get it boxed up so we can settle once and for all what
the correct diameters and cross sections are needed for the 13B coolent
O-ring seals........With any luck the Renesis seals will be the same !! I
know some of the group will like to see the last of the posts about TES
seals !!
--
Kelly Troyer
Dyke Delta/13B/RD1C/EC2


From: Kelly Troyer [mailto:keltro@att.net]
Sent: Friday, July 22, 2005 11:05 AM
To: Jeff Chrysler
Subject: Rotary Engine Coolent Seals

 

Jeff,

   I know you are probably sick and tired of dealing with us rotary guys

and I want you to know that we all appreciate your help......I have heard

nothing but good things from those that have contacted you about our

rotary engine O-ring problem........Our goal is to make a safer and longer

lasting engine utilizing your Teflon-Silicon seals.

  That being said I have a proposition for you that should settle once 

and for all the question of size for the rotary engine coolent seals......If

I send one of the rotary side housings that has the seal grooves to you

for inspection and evaluation as to what diameter and cross section of

seals are needed would that be agreeable to you ?? I will pay shipping

to and from as I will need the housing back.....

   I believe that once we have confirmed the sizes of seals that you will

get increased orders and eliminate all the hassle and E-mails from guys

like me......

 

Thank You

--
Kelly Troyer



-------------- Original message from "George Lendich" <lendich@optusnet.com.au>: --------------
Just for reference guys,
 Most fluid o-ring seals fill between 75-85% of the groove WHEN COMPRESSED. That means that the o-ring will be above the groove about 25-30% before assembly. The diameter of the o-ring will USUALLY leave about 30-40% of the width of the groove visible. To my eye this has always looked like too much free space, but like many other engineering items has been established by breaking parts like in the picture. If you live in the USA you can get a phamplet circular from Parker which shows the gland (the o-ring groove) sizes for most standard size o-rings. usually available for free. They have a larger catalog that shows how to calculate the o-ring and groove sizes. This is avalable even from the cheapest sales shops for a few bucks. Highly recomended if you plant to size o-rings. There are signifigant differences between TYPES of groove seals as well; the rotor housings are a static face gland. Parts that move or rotate have different sized grooves and more importantly different surfaces finishes. (roughness or the lack of it!)
 
Bill Jepson
 
Bill,
You stole my thunder, I went out yesterday and bought this machining guide to cutting "O" ring grooves, then set down and worked through some of the dimensions suggested - they came out roughly, that the "O" rings have to be between 70 to 80 % of the groove - very similar to your recommendation above and I, by no means, worked through all the 'Static Application' sizes.
 
Interestingly our cross section range ( .93 to .98) is approximately 80% (or 1: .8).
I know you have provided this info before but often we don't use information provided, until we need it and quite obviously we need it now.
I think someone in the past suggested that silicone can swell up to 20% of it's original size - so that fits well into our calculations.
 
Given my previous numbers that suggests sizes .093 for the inner or even a little less and no more that .1 for the outer  - now given the cross section of the "O" ring varies (+ or _ .05), I think .98 would be the most appropriate size to use.
 
The only other problem is diameter of the "O" ring and Kelly has kindly volunteered to supply a housing to Creavy for physical assessment -Thanks Kelly!!
 
I did suggest to Jeff that more builders were likely to use these "O" rings if they knew exactly what size to use.
 
I'm actually using Cosmo Rotor housings with the grooves in the Rotor Housings for the single rotor, as I'm using 12A endhousings - in the event anyone was confused with my photo.
George ( down under)
--NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_10968_1122077544_1-- --NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_10968_1122077544_0 Content-Type: message/rfc822 From: "George Lendich" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: TES "O" Rings Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 22:15:41 +0000 Content-Type: Multipart/mixed; boundary="NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_10968_1122077544_2" --NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_10968_1122077544_2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Disposition: inline >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >> Archive: http://lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/List.html --NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_10968_1122077544_2-- --NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_10968_1122077544_0--