X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from [199.185.220.223] (HELO priv-edtnes28.telusplanet.net) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.3.5) with ESMTP id 1022649 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 22:40:22 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=199.185.220.223; envelope-from=echolakeresort@telus.net Received: from boucher-oddle24 ([207.194.26.34]) by priv-edtnes28.telusplanet.net (InterMail vM.6.01.04.04 201-2131-118-104-20050224) with SMTP id <20050627023932.UFHS7254.priv-edtnes28.telusplanet.net@boucher-oddle24> for ; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 20:39:32 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <42BF66DE.000010.01992@BOUCHER-ODDLE24> Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 19:39:26 -0700 (Pacific Standard Time) Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; boundary="------------Boundary-00=_Q12QN0X1VA4000000000" X-Mailer: IncrediMail (3001609) From: "Echo Lake Fishing Resort (Georges Boucher)" References: To: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Coolant Leak X-FID: FLAVOR00-NONE-0000-0000-000000000000 X-Priority: 3 --------------Boundary-00=_Q12QN0X1VA4000000000 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Al=0D There are many domestic & imports with "sealed cooling systems" with the pressure cap on the expansion bottle & a plain cap on the rad (Jeep, Rena= ult are some) the expansion bottle has air space & the coolant never leaves t= he sealed system. I worked with those for many years & in my opinion that is the best system.=0D Georges B. =0D -------Original Message-------=0D =0D From: Rotary motors in aircraft=0D Date: 06/26/05 19:19:10=0D To: Rotary motors in aircraft=0D Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Coolant Leak=0D =0D I'm sorry Georges, I don't understand your statement.=0D All auto cooling sys I'm familiar with have rad cap on top of radiator. T= hey are designed to have no air in the cooling system. Shortly after you star= t up the car, coolant flows from cap 14psi valve to overflow bottle. This pressure increase is entirely due to coolant expansion due to heat. When = you shut car off, the pressure drop in the radiator draws in coolant from cap= 1 psi valve connected to overflow bottle back into the radiator. Thus the radiator is always full to top.=0D =0D I'm recommending cup of air in the active cooling system, not the overflo= w reservoir. This is different than any modern vehicle I know of. The purpo= se is to allow you to use psi as indication of how safe you are from boil ov= er and other faults. With cup-o-air, your system will very gradually increas= e pressure as temperature increases. =0D =0D Check out this site. I often do.=0D =0D http://auto.howstuffworks.com/cooling-system.htm=0D =0D =0D =0D =0D =0D -al wick=0D Artificial intelligence in cockpit, Cozy IV powered by stock Subaru 2.5=0D N9032U 200+ hours on engine/airframe from Portland, Oregon=0D Prop construct, Subaru install, Risk assessment, Glass panel design info:= =0D http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.html=0D =0D =0D On Sun, 26 Jun 2005 18:23:02 -0700 (Pacific Standard Time) "Echo Lake Fishing Resort (Georges Boucher)" writes:=0D Al=0D In a car if you have a header tank (expansion bottle) with a pressure cap= on the bottle & not on the rad the air space will be in the bottle, if you h= ave system with the pressure cap on the rad & no pressure cap on the bottle t= he air space will be in the rad. All systems in one way or an other need coolant expansion room somewhere. BTW for the theory that the coolant vaporizes" when you first start your engine, try propylene glycol (boils = at 360 deg without a pressure cap) if you are right the "Vaporizing will st= op, If.....=0D Georges B.=0D =0D -------Original Message-------=0D =0D From: Rotary motors in aircraft=0D Date: 06/26/05 17:20:04=0D To: Rotary motors in aircraft=0D Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Coolant Leak=0D =0D Actually, I think the opposite is true. I understand the auto approach is= =0D to NOT have any air in the cooling system. I don't recall the details of=0D their reasoning. In my experience, the safety advantage of cup-o-air is=0D much more significant.=0D BTW, it's probably more like 2 cups. The goal is to have enough air=0D cushion to prevent pressure from reaching cap rating. When you include=0D coolant temp, fluid level, and pressure info, it really improves your=0D understanding of how your system is behaving.=0D =0D If you ever open your car radiator and find air at top, it indicates a=0D problem with your cooling system.=0D =0D =0D =0D -al wick=0D Artificial intelligence in cockpit, Cozy IV powered by stock Subaru 2.5=0D N9032U 200+ hours on engine/airframe from Portland, Oregon=0D Prop construct, Subaru install, Risk assessment, Glass panel design info:= =0D http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.html=0D =0D =0D =0D On Sun, 26 Jun 2005 13:15:14 -0400 "Ian Dewhirst" =0D writes:=0D > Al, your experience with the value of having an air cushion is=0D > supported by=0D > every automotive cooling system that I have ever seen (many).=0D > Typically=0D > autos use either a pressure cap and expansion tank that is not=0D > filled to the=0D > top, or an overflow bottle into which coolant is expelled and=0D > recovered. I=0D > get the impression that some people assume that these overflow style=0D > systems=0D > contain no vapour when cold, I don't think that assumption is=0D > correct. The=0D > overflow systems all have expansion capacity built into the top of=0D > the=0D > radiator, or some other part of the cooling system they are never=0D > completely=0D > filled with coolant. The bigger the cooling system the greater the=0D > volume=0D > of vapour stored cold.=0D >=0D > -- Ian=0D >=0D > (GM, Chrysler, and Ford are not trying to piss you off with those=0D > side=0D > mounted radiator caps.. ;-)=0D >=0D >=0D >=0D >=0D > -----Original Message-----=0D > From: Rotary motors in aircraft=0D > [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net]On=0D > Behalf Of al p wick=0D > Sent: Sunday, June 26, 2005 11:58 AM=0D > To: Rotary motors in aircraft=0D > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Coolant Leak=0D >=0D >=0D > My focus is on flight safety. I found great value to having appx. 1=0D > cup=0D > of air at the top of my cooling system....=0D >=0D >=0D >=0D > >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/=0D > >> Archive: http://lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/List.html=0D >=0D >=0D =0D >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/=0D >> Archive: http://lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/List.html=0D =0D =0D =0D =0D =20 --------------Boundary-00=_Q12QN0X1VA4000000000 Content-Type: Text/HTML; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 Al
There are many domestic & imports with "sealed cooling systems" = with the pressure cap on the expansion bottle & a plain cap on the ra= d (Jeep, Renault are some) the expansion bottle has air space & the c= oolant never leaves the sealed system. I worked with those for many years= & in my opinion that is the best system.
Georges B. 
-------Original Message-------
 
Date: 06/26/05 19:= 19:10
Subject: [FlyRotar= y] Re: Coolant Leak
 
I'm sorry Georges, I don't understand your statement.
All auto cooling sys I'm familiar with have rad cap on top of radiat= or. They are designed to have no air in the cooling system. Shortly = after you start up the car, coolant flows from cap 14psi valve = to overflow bottle. This pressure increase is entirely due to coolant exp= ansion due to heat. When you shut car off, the pressure drop in the radia= tor draws in coolant from cap 1 psi valve connected to  overflo= w bottle back into the radiator. Thus the radiator is always full to top.=
 
I'm recommending cup of air in the active cooling system, not the ov= erflow reservoir. This is different than any modern vehicle I know of. Th= e purpose is to allow you to use psi as indication of how safe you are fr= om boil over and other faults. With cup-o-air, your system will very grad= ually increase pressure as temperature increases.
 
Check out this site. I often do.
 
 
 
 
 

-al wick
Artificial intelligence in cockpit, Cozy IV powered = by stock Subaru 2.5
N9032U 200+ hours on engine/airframe from Portland= , Oregon
Prop construct, Subaru install, Risk assessment, Glass panel = design info:
http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.h= tml
 
On Sun, 26 Jun 2005 18:23:02 -0700 (Pacific Standard Time) "Echo Lak= e Fishing Resort (Georges Boucher)" <echolakeresort@telus.net> writes:
Al
In a car if you have a header tank (expansion bottle) with a pr= essure cap on the bottle & not on the rad the air space will be in th= e bottle, if you have system with the pressure cap on the rad & no pr= essure cap on the bottle the air space will be in the rad. All systems in= one way or an other need coolant expansion room somewhere. BTW for the t= heory that the coolant"vaporizes" when you first start your engine, try p= ropylene glycol (boils at 360 deg without a  pressure cap) if y= ou are right the "Vaporizing will stop, If.....
Georges B.
 
-------Original Message-------
 
Date: 06/26/05 17:= 20:04
Subject: [FlyRotar= y] Re: Coolant Leak
 
Actually, I think the opposite is true. I understand the auto approa= ch is
to NOT have any air in the cooling system. I don't recall the detail= s of
their reasoning. In my experience, the safety advantage of cup-o-air= is
much more significant.
BTW, it's probably more like 2 cups. The goal is to have enough air<= /DIV>
cushion to prevent pressure from reaching cap rating. When you inclu= de
coolant temp, fluid level, and pressure info, it really improves you= r
understanding of how your system is behaving.
 
If you ever open your car radiator and find air at top, it indicates= a
problem with your cooling system.
 
 
 
-al wick
Artificial intelligence in cockpit, Cozy IV powered by stock Subaru = 2.5
N9032U 200+ hours on engine/airframe from Portland, Oregon
Prop construct, Subaru install, Risk assessment, Glass panel design = info:
http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.html
 
 
 
On Sun, 26 Jun 2005 13:15:14 -0400 "Ian Dewhirst" <ianddsl@magma.ca>
writes:
> Al, your experience with the value of having an air cushion is<= /DIV>
> supported by
> every automotive cooling system that I have ever seen (many).
> Typically
> autos use either a pressure cap and expansion tank that is not<= /DIV>
> filled to the
> top, or an overflow bottle into which coolant is expelled and
> recovered.  I
> get the impression that some people assume that these overflow = style
> systems
> contain no vapour when cold, I don't think that assumption is
> correct.  The
> overflow systems all have expansion capacity built into the top= of
> the
> radiator, or some other part of the cooling system they are nev= er
> completely
> filled with coolant.  The bigger the cooling system t= he greater the
> volume
> of vapour stored cold.
>
> -- Ian
>
> (GM, Chrysler, and Ford are not trying to piss you off with tho= se
> side
> mounted radiator caps.. ;-)
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rotary motors in aircraft
> Behalf Of al p wick
> Sent: Sunday, June 26, 2005 11:58 AM
> To: Rotary motors in aircraft
> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Coolant Leak
>
>
> My focus is on flight safety. I found great value to having app= x. 1
> cup
> of air at the top of my cooling system....
>
>
>
> >>  Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
>
>
 
>>  Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
 
 
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