X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from smtpauth09.mail.atl.earthlink.net ([209.86.89.69] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.3c5) with ESMTP id 952617 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 22 May 2005 09:33:41 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.86.89.69; envelope-from=Dastaten@earthlink.net Received: from [24.238.206.157] (helo=earthlink.net) by smtpauth09.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DZqZb-0004Jc-OS for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 22 May 2005 09:32:55 -0400 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:X-Accept-Language:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=enCZUsgPPqzo8sE9KGNagtPvl/ruE+5kRC48IK4pVLrSed5Mk5PlhxJVfhoDW7q/; Message-ID: <429088F8.5010103@earthlink.net> Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 08:28:24 -0500 From: David Staten User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Crash investigation References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: 9a30bff84e6cb88f95c85d38d22416599ef193a6bfc3dd48364a4a6c61f25d4273f39a43400fe110af78f7fbf31ba7be350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 24.238.206.157 If this group is to be successful, it needs to be a full fledged type club: 1) Member education 2) Advocacy 3) Insurance Industry Liason 4) Technical Advisors 5) Accident Investigation 6) First Flight support and prep.
 
Much of our "tribal knowledge" is out there, in this listserv, as well as on the ACRE site, and the "best practices" page. Some of the material out there is proprietary, such as Tracy's manuals for stuff he has, as well as his conversion manual. Many of us already own copies of it anyways. Ensuring that knowledge (and experience developed by our members) is eaasily available to other members would be a prime goal.

Preflight and Phase One support would be an important safety tool. There are "cheap" water brake "dynos" out there that can be used to vary loads on the engine to break it in (AND program its ECU) properly from the safety of the ground. Price is in the small thousands, and "leases" are available for around $100/month. Without inferring speculation against the recent accident, can you fathom the benefit of using such a device to determine IF and WHEN your engine will vaporlock? Or to determine EXACTLY how much HP you are making, so you can size the prop for it? Or so you can adequately determine your BSFC and efficiency? Or to know how much heat you really are generating, so you know how much you have to dissipate? Such a device could be loaned/rented to members (or even NON-members for a premium... still cheaper than Dyno time in a race shop)
 
Such a program would undoubtedly give us a better chance at obtaining insurance during testing, and normal ops, by being able to document engine performance PRIOR to the first flight. Not  to mention the "Piece of Mind" (TM) of knowing your engine has already been shaken down long before you take to the sky.
 
I see no reason why such a program could not be incorporated into an existing chapter of the EAA if the membership chose to do so, if such would ease the hassles of incorporating a new organization. There likewise is no requirement for chapter members to have to live near each other.. Hell, we could even FORM a chapter of the EAA and provide the technical and flight advisor support through it, and conduct business by internet video conference. I do not expect EAA National to actually DO anything FOR us.. but they would be a good resource for us to help ourselves.
 
Dave Staten

Todd Bartrim wrote:
Hi David;
    I think you've got a heck of a good idea there, I just hope that the organization never has anything to do. While the FAA or Transport Canada may not want outsiders doing their investigations, it is clear that they have little interest in fully investigating an accident cause and are satisfied with filling in the blanks. While I don't feel I may be fully qualified for this task, I realize that at least in this part of Canada, I may be a contender for the job, which I hope to be never called upon to do. So how would we go about setting up an organization with official status that would be taken seriously by the bureaucrats?
    Another thought that I'd like to add; If this ever happened to me, I'd like to have some legal statement in place instructing Transport Canada to allow one of our community to participate in the investigation or at the very least (if nobody is able to travel this far north:-), release any data from the long-hoped-for and much-begged-for, EM2 datalogger if it ever becomes a reality. That would probably carry more weight than any quasi-official organization and is something that we can each take care of now. We don't want to think of it happening to us, but it's much the same as the organ donor card, can't deal with it when were dead. I'd like to think that if my number was up, at least some good could come from it.
    I believe there was a lawyer in the group? Any opinion on the legal aspect of this. Would this simply be ignored by the feds until the investigation had concluded? In any case, I'm going down to tell the wife right now what my wishes are, so at least there is a verbal statement from me that I'd want you guys involved. Not that I'm planning on giving you something to do :-)
Todd Bartrim
 
RV9Endurance
13B Turbo Rotary
C-FSTB
 
             "The world will always have a place for those that bring hard work and determination to the things they do."

My suggestion is that WE.. the rotary community.. need to incorporate and establish ourselves.. just like any other type-club. We need to establish ourselves as a bonafide entity, with qualified individuals who are 1) intelligent 2) educated 3) detail oriented 4) OBJECTIVE and 5) able to drop what they are doing for 3 or 4 days and travel on their own nickel to perform a role similar to what Paul did. Hell.. even INCLUDE him.. but make sure the "go team" aspect of this organization is able to focus on the FACTS of the situation and not draw premature conclusions. We would need to petition the NTSB and FAA to make them acutely aware at the regional level in EACH region that we have representatives on hand to assist with investigations of rotary powered aircraft. WE would be the experts on wether something was acceptable or not (oil premix, for instance) in the rotary community, and would be able to render input to the board reps/investigators but we would have to be able to BACK IT UP WITH FACTS in any case.