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As we have just seen with Paul, the participants in such a group would
have to agree to confidentiality for at least the short term.
He had to agree to not discuss things in order to participate. I can
understand why that would be required. Once the NTSB final is issued
then perhaps he can discuss what he saw.
As for purchasing the engine and airframe to conduct our own
inspection.. if it was uninsured, the family might very well just
DONATE it since a plastic plane with a car engine agreeably would have
little salvage value. They might say "come and take it". As for
conducting our own inspection.. well.. several things come to mind.
1) the crash site has been disturbed. Significantly. Marks that might
indicate that the engine was actually making power may have been
disturbed. Parts that may have separated in flight may have been
retrieved. Alignment of components on the ground can no longer be
determined. A scene survey would reveal little to us now.
2) Almost certainly, the engine has been disassembled, and the
components removed. Looking for things such as seal/rotor interfaces,
tolerances and wear indicators may not be able to be reliably
determined any longer unless EACH part remained indexed to EACH
identifiable location.
3) I would expect that the ECU has been removed and sent to the
manufacturer to have it's programming at the time of the accident
retrieved. I am unaware of Paul having data-logging, but if it was
available, that memory likewise would have been sent out for analysis.
4) I would expect (maybe expecting too much) that the removal and
disassembly had been videotaped for later review and analysis but in
our current state of organization we likely to never see it without the
explicit consent of the next of kin.
I am not saying that we CANT conduct our own investigation, but I am
suggesting that we would be akin to entering into a boxing ring
blindfolded and with one hand tied behind our back. Regardless of what
you think of Paul and his penchant for Theory and Analysis over
actually DOING it, he was the closest thing we had to an industry
representative on scene.
My suggestion is that WE.. the rotary community.. need to incorporate
and establish ourselves.. just like any other type-club. We need to
establish ourselves as a bonafide entity, with qualified individuals
who are 1) intelligent 2) educated 3) detail oriented 4) OBJECTIVE and
5) able to drop what they are doing for 3 or 4 days and travel on their
own nickel to perform a role similar to what Paul did. Hell.. even
INCLUDE him.. but make sure the "go team" aspect of this organization
is able to focus on the FACTS of the situation and not draw premature
conclusions. We would need to petition the NTSB and FAA to make them
acutely aware at the regional level in EACH region that we have
representatives on hand to assist with investigations of rotary powered
aircraft. WE would be the experts on wether something was acceptable or
not (oil premix, for instance) in the rotary community, and would be
able to render input to the board reps/investigators but we would have
to be able to BACK IT UP WITH FACTS in any case.
I am interested in being in a position to assist in the formation of
such a group, and gawd forbid, if I have to be a leader then I'd do it.
As of yet, I would have to admit that I am unqualified for a role on a
"team" that I am depicting: I havent got the motor running yet, nor the
plane flying. Folks who would? Ed Anderson... Tracy Crook (and also
from a PSRU, ECU standpoint)... Dave Leonard (when he's not too busy
being a resident MD).. Paul L... (dont shoot me.. ok?.. He has the
resources and engineering data, and the ability to comprehend it).
If there is interest in creating a formal organization, analogous to
the T34 association or the Cessna Pilots Association, then this would
be the place to get it started. We could plan to hold annual meetings
at OSH or SNF... you name it..
This is not a flash in the pan BS offer.. If you want to do this, its
not to further yourself.. its to further the cause of safety for our
powerplants, and advocate on our behalf. Professional Volunteers.
Prospective Member of "The Rotary Powered Flyers Association" (or
insert another good name here)
David Staten
David Leonard wrote:
I agree with Ed and Todd.
BTW, He has just confirmed on the ACRE list that he was indeed there
but no word on what he found. Hewever, there was a mysterious warning
from him about Andar fuel valves in low wing aircraft....
Dave Leonard
On 5/21/05, Ed Anderson <eanderson@carolina.rr.com> wrote:
The cause of the previous fatal rotary crash was official found to be "the
disabling of the oil injection system", when the poor guy actually had his
oil cooler blow. This lead to lost of oil, engine sizing which together with
the real cause - adverse aft CG of the Coot he was flying prevented an
engine-out recovery. They consulted the local Mazda dealer who's mechanics
probably had never seen the inside of a rotary engine and they noted the oil
injection system disabled - and there was no one to explain to the NSTB that
we premix oil and even if there had been no premix the engine would not have
seized. But, as someone mentioned the NSTB just wants to nail a cause and
close the report. Since ever experimental is different, I believe they have
little incentive to spend a lot of time on an accident. Unlike where they
may be hundreds or thousands of GA aircraft all built to the same
design/standard - so if they do find something about a GA it may affect
hundreds of aircraft instead of one or two or a dozen.
While I share some of your concerns about PL, I do believe he would
preclude (provided he isn't thrown out by the NSTB team {:>)) such an
erroneous conclusion being drawn.
Ed
----- Original Message -----
From: "Todd Bartrim" <haywire@telus.net>
To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2005 4:46 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Crash investigation
Is THAT guy going to be in on it? If PL is on the scene, we'll hear a
lot of pronouncements that pump up his ego. I expect some unsupported
generalities around Paul's design flaws (reminiscent of "EWP and
Plugs-Up and etc. are stupid, flawed ideas that can never work" ...
I'll be very surprised if we get anything beyond that ... Jim S.
Archive: http://lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/List.html
I considered this also, but I'd like to think that he would have enough
scruples to not use this tragedy to promote his own ideals and his
newsgroup
while denouncing this list and our ways. Until he proves otherwise, I'll
just be happy that there may be more input to the FAA investigation than
from the local Mazda garage mechanic.
I would kick in a little $$ if necessary in order to purchase the wreckage
for an investigation by members of this group. I feel we owe Paul at least
this much.
Todd Bartrim
RV9Endurance
13B Turbo Rotary
C-FSTB
http://www3.telus.net/haywire/RV-9/C-FSTB.htm
"The world will always have a place for those that bring hard
work and determination to the things they do."
Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive: http://lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/List.html
Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive: http://lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/List.html
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