X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from smtpauth09.mail.atl.earthlink.net ([209.86.89.69] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.3c5) with ESMTP id 952318 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 21 May 2005 19:24:55 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.86.89.69; envelope-from=Dastaten@earthlink.net Received: from [24.238.206.157] (helo=earthlink.net) by smtpauth09.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DZdKE-0002VD-3v for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 21 May 2005 19:24:10 -0400 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:X-Accept-Language:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=BzxqyMjVSJrTULvsYqbcv5UzJ9XRCS/TeyV0ZGsNx/2ZjB+pJPHviagF4o3sTx6x; Message-ID: <428FC244.7070702@earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 18:20:36 -0500 From: David Staten User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Crash investigation References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: 9a30bff84e6cb88f95c85d38d22416599ef193a6bfc3dd48b9b344a9af739dbcc8b45ecb620c080b667c3043c0873f7e350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 24.238.206.157 As we have just seen with Paul, the participants in such a group would have to agree to confidentiality for at least the short term.

He had to agree to not discuss things in order to participate. I can understand why that would be required. Once the NTSB final is issued then perhaps he can discuss what he saw.

As for purchasing the engine and airframe to conduct our own inspection.. if it was uninsured, the family might very well just DONATE it since a plastic plane with a car engine agreeably would have little salvage value. They might say "come and take it". As for conducting our own inspection.. well.. several things come to mind.

1) the crash site has been disturbed. Significantly. Marks that might indicate that the engine was actually making power may have been disturbed. Parts that may have separated in flight may have been retrieved. Alignment of components on the ground can no longer be determined. A scene survey would reveal little to us now.

2) Almost certainly, the engine has been disassembled, and the components removed. Looking for things such as seal/rotor interfaces, tolerances and wear indicators may not be able to be reliably determined any longer unless EACH part remained indexed to EACH identifiable location.

3) I would expect that the ECU has been removed and sent to the manufacturer to have it's programming at the time of the accident retrieved. I am unaware of Paul having data-logging, but if it was available, that memory likewise would have been sent out for analysis.
4) I would expect (maybe expecting too much) that the removal and disassembly had been videotaped for later review and analysis but in our current state of organization we likely to never see it without the explicit consent of the next of kin.

I am not saying that we CANT conduct our own investigation, but I am suggesting that we would be akin to entering into a boxing ring blindfolded and with one hand tied behind our back. Regardless of what you think of Paul and his penchant for Theory and Analysis over actually DOING it, he was the closest thing we had to an industry representative on scene.

My suggestion is that WE.. the rotary community.. need to incorporate and establish ourselves.. just like any other type-club. We need to establish ourselves as a bonafide entity, with qualified individuals who are 1) intelligent 2) educated 3) detail oriented 4) OBJECTIVE and 5) able to drop what they are doing for 3 or 4 days and travel on their own nickel to perform a role similar to what Paul did. Hell.. even INCLUDE him.. but make sure the "go team" aspect of this organization is able to focus on the FACTS of the situation and not draw premature conclusions. We would need to petition the NTSB and FAA to make them acutely aware at the regional level in EACH region that we have representatives on hand to assist with investigations of rotary powered aircraft. WE would be the experts on wether something was acceptable or not (oil premix, for instance) in the rotary community, and would be able to render input to the board reps/investigators but we would have to be able to BACK IT UP WITH FACTS in any case.

I am interested in being in a position to assist in the formation of such a group, and gawd forbid, if I have to be a leader then I'd do it. As of yet, I would have to admit that I am unqualified for a role on a "team" that I am depicting: I havent got the motor running yet, nor the plane flying. Folks who would? Ed Anderson... Tracy Crook (and also from a PSRU, ECU standpoint)... Dave Leonard (when he's not too busy being a resident MD).. Paul L... (dont shoot me.. ok?.. He has the resources and engineering data, and the ability to comprehend it).

If there is interest in creating a formal organization, analogous to the T34 association or the Cessna Pilots Association, then this would be the place to get it started. We could plan to hold annual meetings at OSH or SNF... you name it..

This is not a flash in the pan BS offer.. If you want to do this, its not to further yourself.. its to further the cause of safety for our powerplants, and advocate on our behalf. Professional Volunteers.

Prospective Member of "The Rotary Powered Flyers Association" (or insert another good name here)
David Staten

David Leonard wrote:

I agree with Ed and Todd. 

BTW, He has just confirmed on the ACRE list that he was indeed there
but no word on what he found.  Hewever, there was a mysterious warning
from him about Andar fuel valves in low wing aircraft....

Dave Leonard

On 5/21/05, Ed Anderson <eanderson@carolina.rr.com> wrote:

The cause of the previous fatal rotary crash was official found to be "the
disabling of the oil injection system", when the poor guy actually had his
oil cooler blow. This lead to lost of oil, engine sizing which together with
the real cause - adverse aft CG of the Coot  he was flying  prevented an
engine-out recovery.  They consulted the local Mazda dealer who's mechanics
probably had never seen the inside of a rotary engine and they noted the oil
injection system disabled - and there was no one to explain to the NSTB that
we premix oil and even if there had been no premix the engine would not have
seized. But, as someone mentioned the NSTB just wants to nail a cause and
close the report.  Since ever experimental is different, I believe they have
little incentive to spend a lot of time on an accident.  Unlike where they
may be hundreds or thousands of GA aircraft all built to the same
design/standard - so if they do find something about a GA it may affect
hundreds of aircraft instead of one or two or a dozen.

While I share some of your concerns about PL,  I do believe he would
preclude (provided he isn't thrown out by the NSTB team {:>)) such an
erroneous conclusion being drawn.

Ed
----- Original Message -----
From: "Todd Bartrim" <haywire@telus.net>
To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2005 4:46 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Crash investigation

Is THAT guy going to be in on it?  If PL is on the scene, we'll hear a
lot of pronouncements that pump up his ego.  I expect some unsupported
generalities around Paul's design flaws (reminiscent of "EWP and
Plugs-Up and etc. are stupid, flawed ideas that can never work" ...
I'll be very surprised if we get anything beyond that ... Jim S.

 Archive:   http://lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/List.html

I considered this also, but I'd like to think that he would have enough
scruples to not use this tragedy to promote his own ideals and his
newsgroup
while denouncing this list and our ways. Until he proves otherwise, I'll
just be happy that there may be more input to the FAA investigation than
from the local Mazda garage mechanic.
I would kick in a little $$ if necessary in order to purchase the wreckage
for an investigation by members of this group. I feel we owe Paul at least
this much.

Todd Bartrim

RV9Endurance
13B Turbo Rotary
C-FSTB
http://www3.telus.net/haywire/RV-9/C-FSTB.htm

            "The world will always have a place for those that bring hard
work and determination to the things they do."

 Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
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