Return-Path: Sender: (Marvin Kaye) To: flyrotary Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2003 22:26:16 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from mail.viclink.com ([66.129.220.6] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.1b6) with ESMTP id 2370286 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 01 Jun 2003 00:44:03 -0400 Received: from viclink.com (p180.AS1.viclink.com [66.129.192.180]) by mail.viclink.com (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id h514iRY54141 for ; Sat, 31 May 2003 21:44:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-Message-ID: <3ED983B7.5010700@viclink.com> X-Original-Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 21:40:24 -0700 From: Perry Mick User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win95; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] EWP- was Aussie invention References: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------090800000705000701090503" X-RAVMilter-Version: 8.4.3(snapshot 20030217) (mail.viclink.com) --------------090800000705000701090503 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Haywire wrote: > Even if the electric water pump should work, what is the reason to > use one? It would have to be less efficient. You are converting > mechanical energy to electrical energy and then back to mechanical > energy? There is going to be a loss at every conversion. So in the > end you will be sapping more energy from your engine to power the > water pump, power that could be going into your prop. > > No one has claimed that it will be more efficient by converting > energy forms, but by converting to a mangeable energy form. As > mechanical energy we have only one way of controlling flow.... > restriction, which adds heat as it wastes energy. Exactly what we > don't want. Removing the thermostat will eliminate this restriction, > but at the expense of uncontrolled flow of excess coolant. This in > itself is a waste of energy and it causes the engine to operate at > less than ideal temperature for optimum effiecency. A cooler engine > will produce more power, but a hotter engine will be more efficient. > Many of us operate in northern climates, where the elimination of > temperature control has a very negative effect. > An EWP allows us to use only enough energy to keep the engine > cool. The rest isn't wasted in conversion because it just isn't > converted. At all. No more than is neccesary. Nada. Zip. It also alows > the pump to deliver higher flow rates if required when the engine > speed is low but load is high, as they are not mechanicly linked. > Using the electronic controller with a variable controll wired in will > also allow me to control engine temp in flight. Running it a little > cooler will provide me with extra power, but I don't expect I'll ever > need it as a turbo 13B is already alot more than the "9" requires. But > as I added alot of extra fuel capacity for long range flights, I find > the idea of bumping up the temp for a little better economy very enticing. > Another great benifit is that I got to trade 12lbs. of mechanical > pump for 2lbs of EWP & controller. While it added the challenge of > designing an adapter, it allowed me alot more flexibility in my > installation, which eliminated the need for cowl bumps. > > Leon has promised us some scientific data, but it doesn't appear to be > very scientific process since Leon already has his mind made up! Sorry > Leon, just a bit sceptical, waiting for some test data.... > > I'm not Leon, but since were both beating the same drum.... > > Have I flown yet? No. Have you flown yet? Yes. Succeslfuly for > several years now. But I expect to fly sometime in the next 2 months > and am very confident in the abilities of my system, however I will be > the first to admit that it is experimental and so subject to much > testing before proving or disproving it's success. I may end up with > egg on my face yet, but I certainly will not feel bad about it. On the > contrary, I feel very satisfied with my efforts to put an end to this > speculating over whether the EWP is a valid concept. While I hope for > it's success, I will be content either way. After all, if I just > wanted a proven flying machine, I would have just bought that old, > butt ugly C-150, that I was offered just before I decided to build. > Perry, you should definitely understand the desire to go your own > way. When you first proposed a ducted fan, you must have raised many > eyebrows. As for Leon already having his mind made up, I would say > that there are many who already have their mind made up against them, > without having any practical experience. Leon has had experience with > them, albeit in a different application. > While I won't promise detailed test data like Leon is working on, > I hope to provide some real world aircraft experience within the next > 2 months. > (hint --- I need an EM2 --soon) ;-) (I hope I'm near the top of > the list) > And I promise to report the results as unbiased facts, so that we can > individually decide if it is a success or not. > > > S. Todd Bartrim > Turbo 13B RV-9Endurance > C-FSTB > http://www3.telus.net/haywire/RV-9/C-FSTB.htm > > "Whatever you vividly imagine, Ardently desire, Sincerely believe > in, Enthusiastically act upon, Must inevitably come to pass". > > > I'm all for what you are doing Todd, where would we be without experimentation? I can also see now that you are using the EWP as a sort of thermostat replacement. Looks like you will be getting us some real world data soon in an aircraft application, so I look forward to seeing the results. -- Perry Mick Custom Composite Props mick@bridgingworlds.com http://www.ductedfan.com --------------090800000705000701090503 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Haywire wrote:
Even if the electric water pump should work, what is the reason to use one? It would have to be less efficient. You are converting mechanical energy to electrical energy and then back to mechanical energy? There is going to be a loss at every conversion. So in the end you will be sapping more energy from your engine to power the water pump, power that could be going into your prop.

    No one has claimed that it will be more efficient by converting energy forms, but by converting to a mangeable energy form. As mechanical energy we have only one way of controlling flow.... restriction, which adds heat as it wastes energy. Exactly what we don't want. Removing the thermostat will eliminate this restriction, but at the expense of uncontrolled flow of excess coolant. This in itself is a waste of energy and it causes the engine to operate at less than ideal temperature for optimum effiecency. A cooler engine will produce more power, but a hotter engine will be more efficient. Many of us operate in northern climates, where the elimination of temperature control has a very negative effect.
    An EWP allows us to use only enough energy to keep the engine cool. The rest isn't wasted in conversion because it just isn't converted. At all. No more than is neccesary. Nada. Zip. It also alows the pump to deliver higher flow rates if required when the engine speed is low but load is high, as they are not mechanicly linked. Using the electronic controller with a variable controll wired in will also allow me to control engine temp in flight. Running it a little cooler will provide me with extra power, but I don't expect I'll ever need it as a turbo 13B is already alot more than the "9" requires. But as I added alot of extra fuel capacity for long range flights, I find the idea of bumping up the temp for a little better economy very enticing.
    Another great benifit is that I got to trade 12lbs. of mechanical pump for 2lbs of EWP & controller. While it added the challenge of designing an adapter, it allowed me alot more flexibility in my installation, which eliminated the need for cowl bumps.
 
Leon has promised us some scientific data, but it doesn't appear to be very scientific process since Leon already has his mind made up! Sorry Leon, just a bit sceptical, waiting for some test data....
 
I'm not Leon, but since were both beating the same drum....
 
    Have I flown yet? No. Have you flown yet? Yes. Succeslfuly for several years now. But I expect to fly sometime in the next 2 months and am very confident in the abilities of my system, however I will be the first to admit that it is experimental and so subject to much testing before proving or disproving it's success. I may end up with egg on my face yet, but I certainly will not feel bad about it. On the contrary, I feel very satisfied with my efforts to put an end to this speculating over whether the EWP is a valid concept. While I hope for it's success, I will be content either way. After all, if I just wanted a proven flying machine, I would have just bought that old, butt ugly C-150, that I was offered just before I decided to build.
    Perry, you should definitely understand the desire to go your own way. When you first proposed a ducted fan, you must have raised many eyebrows. As for Leon already having his mind made up, I would say that there are many who already have their mind made up against them, without having any practical experience. Leon has had experience with them, albeit in a different application.
    While I won't promise detailed test data like Leon is working on, I hope to provide some real world aircraft experience within the next 2 months.
    (hint --- I need an EM2 --soon) ;-) (I hope I'm near the top of the list)
And I promise to report the results as unbiased facts, so that we can individually decide if it is a success or not.
 

S. Todd Bartrim
Turbo 13B RV-9Endurance
C-FSTB
http://www3.telus.net/haywire/RV-9/C-FSTB.htm

   "Whatever you vividly imagine, Ardently desire, Sincerely believe in, Enthusiastically act upon, Must inevitably come to pass".

 
I'm all for what you are doing Todd, where would we be without experimentation?  I can also see now that you are using the EWP as a sort of thermostat replacement. Looks like you will be getting us some real world data soon in an aircraft application, so I look forward to seeing the results. 
-- 
Perry Mick
Custom Composite Props
mick@bridgingworlds.com
http://www.ductedfan.com

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