Return-Path: Sender: (Marvin Kaye) To: flyrotary Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 22:03:17 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from [199.185.220.223] (HELO priv-edtnes16-hme0.telusplanet.net) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.1b6) with ESMTP id 2369949 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 31 May 2003 16:58:41 -0400 Received: from Endurance ([209.53.248.88]) by priv-edtnes16-hme0.telusplanet.net (InterMail vM.5.01.05.17 201-253-122-126-117-20021021) with SMTP id <20030531205836.SCUX1471.priv-edtnes16-hme0.telusplanet.net@Endurance> for ; Sat, 31 May 2003 14:58:36 -0600 From: "Haywire" X-Original-To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Subject: EWP- was Aussie invention X-Original-Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 13:58:19 -0700 X-Original-Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0035_01C3277C.B0AC84B0" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0035_01C3277C.B0AC84B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Even if the electric water pump should work, what is the reason to use one? It would have to be less efficient. You are converting mechanical energy to electrical energy and then back to mechanical energy? There is going to be a loss at every conversion. So in the end you will be sapping more energy from your engine to power the water pump, power that could be going into your prop. No one has claimed that it will be more efficient by converting energy forms, but by converting to a mangeable energy form. As mechanical energy we have only one way of controlling flow.... restriction, which adds heat as it wastes energy. Exactly what we don't want. Removing the thermostat will eliminate this restriction, but at the expense of uncontrolled flow of excess coolant. This in itself is a waste of energy and it causes the engine to operate at less than ideal temperature for optimum effiecency. A cooler engine will produce more power, but a hotter engine will be more efficient. Many of us operate in northern climates, where the elimination of temperature control has a very negative effect. An EWP allows us to use only enough energy to keep the engine cool. The rest isn't wasted in conversion because it just isn't converted. At all. No more than is neccesary. Nada. Zip. It also alows the pump to deliver higher flow rates if required when the engine speed is low but load is high, as they are not mechanicly linked. Using the electronic controller with a variable controll wired in will also allow me to control engine temp in flight. Running it a little cooler will provide me with extra power, but I don't expect I'll ever need it as a turbo 13B is already alot more than the "9" requires. But as I added alot of extra fuel capacity for long range flights, I find the idea of bumping up the temp for a little better economy very enticing. Another great benifit is that I got to trade 12lbs. of mechanical pump for 2lbs of EWP & controller. While it added the challenge of designing an adapter, it allowed me alot more flexibility in my installation, which eliminated the need for cowl bumps. Leon has promised us some scientific data, but it doesn't appear to be very scientific process since Leon already has his mind made up! Sorry Leon, just a bit sceptical, waiting for some test data.... I'm not Leon, but since were both beating the same drum.... Have I flown yet? No. Have you flown yet? Yes. Succeslfuly for several years now. But I expect to fly sometime in the next 2 months and am very confident in the abilities of my system, however I will be the first to admit that it is experimental and so subject to much testing before proving or disproving it's success. I may end up with egg on my face yet, but I certainly will not feel bad about it. On the contrary, I feel very satisfied with my efforts to put an end to this speculating over whether the EWP is a valid concept. While I hope for it's success, I will be content either way. After all, if I just wanted a proven flying machine, I would have just bought that old, butt ugly C-150, that I was offered just before I decided to build. Perry, you should definitely understand the desire to go your own way. When you first proposed a ducted fan, you must have raised many eyebrows. As for Leon already having his mind made up, I would say that there are many who already have their mind made up against them, without having any practical experience. Leon has had experience with them, albeit in a different application. While I won't promise detailed test data like Leon is working on, I hope to provide some real world aircraft experience within the next 2 months. (hint --- I need an EM2 --soon) ;-) (I hope I'm near the top of the list) And I promise to report the results as unbiased facts, so that we can individually decide if it is a success or not. S. Todd Bartrim Turbo 13B RV-9Endurance C-FSTB http://www3.telus.net/haywire/RV-9/C-FSTB.htm "Whatever you vividly imagine, Ardently desire, Sincerely believe in, Enthusiastically act upon, Must inevitably come to pass". ------=_NextPart_000_0035_01C3277C.B0AC84B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Even=20 if the electric water pump should work, what is the reason to use one? = It=20 would have to be less efficient. You are converting mechanical energy = to=20 electrical energy and then back to mechanical energy? There is going = to be a=20 loss at every conversion. So in the end you will be sapping more = energy from=20 your engine to power the water pump, power that could be going into = your=20 prop.

    No one has claimed that it will be more = efficient by=20 converting energy forms, but by converting to a mangeable energy form. = As=20 mechanical energy we have only one way of controlling flow.... = restriction,=20 which adds heat as it wastes energy. Exactly what we don't want. = Removing the=20 thermostat will eliminate this restriction, but at the expense of = uncontrolled=20 flow of excess coolant. This in itself is a waste of energy and it = causes=20 the engine to operate at less than ideal temperature for = optimum=20 effiecency. A cooler engine will produce more power, but a hotter engine = will be=20 more efficient. Many of us operate in northern climates, where the = elimination=20 of temperature control has a very negative effect.
    An EWP allows us to use only enough energy to = keep the=20 engine cool. The rest isn't wasted in conversion because it just isn't=20 converted. At all. No more than is neccesary. Nada. Zip. It also alows = the=20 pump to deliver higher flow rates if required when the engine = speed is=20 low but load is high, as they are not mechanicly linked. Using the = electronic=20 controller with a variable controll wired in will also allow me to = control=20 engine temp in flight. Running it a little cooler will provide me with = extra=20 power, but I don't expect I'll ever need it as a turbo 13B is already=20 alot more than the "9" requires. But as I added alot of extra fuel = capacity=20 for long range flights, I find the idea of bumping up the temp for a = little=20 better economy very enticing.
    Another great benifit is that I got to trade = 12lbs. of=20 mechanical pump for 2lbs of EWP & controller. While it added the = challenge=20 of designing an adapter, it allowed me alot more flexibility in my = installation,=20 which eliminated the need for cowl bumps.
 
Leon has promised us some = scientific data,=20 but it doesn't appear to be very scientific process since Leon already = has his=20 mind made up! Sorry Leon, just a bit sceptical, waiting for some test = data....=20
 
I'm=20 not Leon, but since were both beating the same = drum....
 
    Have I flown yet? No. Have you flown yet? Yes. = Succeslfuly=20 for several years now. But I expect to fly sometime in the next 2 months = and am=20 very confident in the abilities of my system, however I will be the = first to=20 admit that it is experimental and so subject to much testing before = proving or=20 disproving it's success. I may end up with egg on my face yet, but I = certainly=20 will not feel bad about it. On the contrary, I feel very satisfied with = my=20 efforts to put an end to this speculating over whether the EWP is a = valid=20 concept. While I hope for it's success, I will be content either way. = After all,=20 if I just wanted a proven flying machine, I would have just bought that = old,=20 butt ugly C-150, that I was offered just before I decided to=20 build.
    Perry, you should definitely understand the = desire to go=20 your own way. When you first proposed a ducted fan, you must have raised = many=20 eyebrows. As for Leon already having his mind made up, I would say that = there=20 are many who already have their mind made up against them, without = having any=20 practical experience. Leon has had experience with them, albeit in a = different=20 application.
    While I won't promise detailed test data like = Leon is=20 working on, I hope to provide some real world aircraft experience within = the=20 next 2 months.
    (hint --- I need an EM2 --soon) ;-) (I = hope I'm=20 near the top of the list)
And I=20 promise to report the results as unbiased facts, so that we can = individually=20 decide if it is a success or not.
 

S. Todd Bartrim
Turbo 13B = RV-9Endurance
C-FSTB
http://www3.telus.net/haywire/RV-9/C-FSTB.htm

=   =20 "Whatever you vividly imagine, Ardently desire, Sincerely believe in,=20 Enthusiastically act upon, Must inevitably come to pass".

 
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