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From: "Ed Anderson" <eanderson@carolina.rr.com>
To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
References: <list-350306@logan.com>
Subject: May not work above 8000 MSL was  [FlyRotary] Re: Oil injection, and more
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 12:50:10 -0400
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Dave may be correct, Perry.

Here is what I think could occur.  First, The oil  meter pump itself is =
a positive displacement pump.=20

Therefore, from the standpoint of the pump it will always disperse any =
oil fed to it into the injectors and combustion chamber under some =
amount of pressure.  However, the shaft opening that drives the pump =
also provides for the oil flow from inside the Engine Front mount into =
the metering pump.  There is a hole in the boss of the metering pump =
shaft (on the inside of the front housing) that is open to the =
atmosphere.

  At sea level of course this hole in the boss results in 14.7 psi of =
pressure on the oil in the meter shaft.  So as the positive displacement =
pump opens a chamber  - the oil flows into the chamber with the help of =
this 14.7 (or what ever the differential between the pressure in the =
pump chamber and the atmosphere- it will something less than 14.7 but =
probably greater than 12?)  and gets "squirted" toward the injectors =
underpressure.

Of course, as altitude increases, there is less and less air pressure to =
force the oil into the meter pump chamber.  We know that the rate of oil =
(or any liquid) flow is directly dependent on the pressure differential =
between the high pressure side (atmospheric) and the low-pressure side =
(pump chamber).  So as atmospheric pressure decreases (all else staying =
the same - like metering position) the oil flow into the pump and hence =
into the combustion chamber undoubtedly drops off.  At some point it may =
be insufficient to provide the specified oil flow to the pump and =
combustion chamber. Not saying there is none - just not as much as at =
sea level.

I suppose its also possible that as  atmospheric pressure drops down to =
say 8 psi at altitude, it may be  insufficient to overcome the viscosity =
of the oil and push it into the metering pump chamber - or at least not =
at the normal flow of oil rate.

  The only thing that forces oil into the oil metering chamber is =
atmospheric pressure.  So as that decreases, I would suppose it possible =
it might reach a point, at some altitude, that the pressure is not =
adequate to move sufficient oil into the metering pump and therefore =
into the combustion chamber.=20

At least that looks possible to me.  FWIW

Ed

Ed Anderson
RV-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
Matthews, NC
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Perry Mick=20
  To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20
  Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2004 9:00 AM
  Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Oil injection, and more


  Al Gietzen wrote:



    It is my understanding (from David Atkins) is that the spring on the =
metering pump forces the control to 'Low' position.  Since this is a =
critcal issue if relying upon the metered system for seal lubrication I =
(we) would be forever grateful if someone would verify which way is =
which.



    On a related subject, a posting on the ACRE list follows:

    Dave Atkins claims the apex seal oil metering system does not work =
over=20

    8000 feet. He also claims the engine will run up to three months in =
automotive service with no apex seal oil whatsoever. We have some =
verification of that as George Graham flew his airplane from Tennessee =
to New York state while forgetting to mix two cycle oil with the fuel.



    If it be true, then that also is a bit of a critical piece of =
information.  But 'why'? The driving force for the metering system oil =
flow (as best I can figure out) is the pressure differential between the =
ambient atmospheric and the pressure in the combustion chamber during =
the intake cycle.  This would suggest that for a NA engine there would =
always be some pressure to drive the flow.=20



     And it is consistent that the metering control lever should be at =
lowest flow for closed throttle position (greatest pressure =
differential), and highest flow position for open throttle position =
(lowest pressure differential).  I'd guess there is the presumption that =
the lubrication requirement is only a function of RPM, and not power =
output, and the metering control level is for compensation of the =
changes in pressure differential.



    Al

  Al, I just went out and checked it on my RX-7, and I was wrong. The =
spring forces the pump to the minimum flow. Sorry for the erroneous =
statement earlier. Like I said in a previous message, I premix 2-stroke =
with the fuel, and just leave the minimal metering pump flow as a =
backup, and it puts the oil right on the apex seal, which surely is more =
effective than relying only on just the dispersed two-stroke oil. The =
idea of running ONLY with premix has always made me a little nervous so =
I wasn't willing to remove the stock system completely. Even with it set =
to minimal flow you can see the oil moving in the tubes.
  For my first 200 hours I flew with the stock system and did not add =
oil to the gas.
  I don't think I buy that statement that the metering pump quits =
working above 8000'.

  Perry


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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Dave may be correct, =
Perry.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Here is what I think could occur.&nbsp; =
First, The=20
oil &nbsp;meter pump itself is a positive displacement pump. =
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Therefore, from the standpoint of the =
pump it will=20
always disperse any oil fed to it into the injectors and combustion =
chamber=20
under some amount of pressure.&nbsp; However, the shaft opening that =
drives the=20
pump also provides for the oil flow from inside the Engine&nbsp;Front =
mount into=20
the metering pump.&nbsp; There is a hole in the boss of the metering =
pump shaft=20
(on the inside of the front housing) that is open to the=20
atmosphere.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp; At sea level of course this hole =
in the boss=20
results in 14.7 psi of pressure on the oil in the meter shaft.&nbsp; So =
as the=20
positive displacement pump opens a chamber&nbsp; - the oil flows into =
the=20
chamber with the help of this 14.7 (or what ever the differential =
between the=20
pressure in the pump chamber and the atmosphere- it will something less =
than=20
14.7 but probably greater than 12?)&nbsp; and gets "squirted" toward the =

injectors underpressure.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Of course, as altitude increases, there =
is less and=20
less air pressure to force the oil into the meter pump chamber.&nbsp; We =
know=20
that the rate of oil (or any liquid) flow is directly dependent on the =
pressure=20
differential between the high pressure side (atmospheric) and the =
low-pressure=20
side (pump chamber).&nbsp; So as atmospheric pressure decreases (all =
else=20
staying the same - like metering position) the oil flow into the pump =
and hence=20
into the combustion chamber undoubtedly drops off.&nbsp; At some point =
it may be=20
insufficient to provide the specified oil flow to the pump and =
combustion=20
chamber. Not saying there is none - just not as much as at sea=20
level.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I suppose its also possible =
that&nbsp;as=20
&nbsp;atmospheric pressure drops down to say 8 psi at altitude, it may =
be&nbsp;=20
insufficient to overcome the viscosity of the oil and push it into the =
metering=20
pump chamber - or at least not at&nbsp;the normal flow of oil =
rate.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp; The only thing that forces oil =
into the oil=20
metering chamber is atmospheric pressure.&nbsp; So as that decreases, I =
would=20
suppose it possible it might reach a point, at some altitude, that the =
pressure=20
is not adequate to move sufficient oil into the metering&nbsp;pump and =
therefore=20
into the combustion chamber.&nbsp;</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>At least that looks possible to =
me.&nbsp;=20
FWIW</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Ed</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Ed Anderson<BR>RV-6A N494BW Rotary Powered<BR>Matthews, NC</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=3Dpjmick@viclink.com href=3D"mailto:pjmick@viclink.com">Perry =
Mick</A>=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dflyrotary@lancaironline.net=20
  href=3D"mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net">Rotary motors in =
aircraft</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, August 03, 2004 =
9:00=20
  AM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [FlyRotary] Re: Oil =
injection,=20
  and more</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>Al Gietzen wrote:<BR>
  <BLOCKQUOTE cite=3Dmidlist-350017@logan.com type=3D"cite">
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    <DIV class=3DSection1>
    <P class=3DMsoPlainText><FONT face=3DNimrod size=3D2><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</P>
    <P class=3DMsoPlainText><FONT face=3DVerdana size=3D2><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">It is my =
understanding (from=20
    David Atkins) is that the spring on the metering pump forces the =
control to=20
    =91Low=92 position.&nbsp; Since this is a critcal issue if relying =
upon the=20
    metered system for seal lubrication I (we) would be forever grateful =
if=20
    someone would verify which way is which.</SPAN></FONT></P>
    <P class=3DMsoPlainText><FONT face=3DVerdana color=3Dblack =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: =
Verdana"></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</P>
    <P class=3DMsoPlainText><FONT face=3DVerdana color=3Dblack =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">On a =
related=20
    subject, a posting on the </SPAN></FONT><FONT face=3DVerdana =
color=3Dblack><SPAN=20
    style=3D"COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">ACRE</SPAN></FONT><FONT =

    face=3DVerdana color=3Dblack><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: black; =
FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">=20
    list follows:</SPAN></FONT></P>
    <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DNimrod size=3D2><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Nimrod">Dave Atkins claims =
the apex=20
    seal oil metering system does not work over </SPAN></FONT></P>
    <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DNimrod size=3D2><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Nimrod">8000 feet. He also =
claims the=20
    engine will run up to three months in automotive service with no =
apex seal=20
    oil whatsoever. We have some verification of that as George Graham =
flew his=20
    airplane from </SPAN></FONT><FONT face=3DNimrod size=3D2><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
Nimrod">Tennessee</SPAN></FONT><FONT=20
    face=3DNimrod size=3D2><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
Nimrod"> to=20
    </SPAN></FONT><FONT face=3DNimrod size=3D2><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Nimrod">New =
York</SPAN></FONT><FONT=20
    face=3DNimrod size=3D2><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
Nimrod"> state=20
    while forgetting to mix two cycle oil with the =
fuel.</SPAN></FONT></P>
    <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DVerdana size=3D2><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
Verdana"></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</P>
    <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DVerdana color=3Dblack =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">If it =
be true,=20
    then that also is a bit of a critical piece of information.&nbsp; =
But =91why=92?=20
    The driving force for the metering system oil flow (as best I can =
figure=20
    out) is the pressure differential between the ambient atmospheric =
and the=20
    pressure in the combustion chamber during the intake cycle. =
&nbsp;This would=20
    suggest that for a NA engine there would always be some pressure to =
drive=20
    the flow. </SPAN></FONT></P>
    <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DVerdana color=3Dblack =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: =
Verdana"></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</P>
    <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DVerdana color=3Dblack =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: =
Verdana">&nbsp;And it is=20
    consistent that the metering control lever should be at lowest flow =
for=20
    closed throttle position (greatest pressure differential), and =
highest flow=20
    position for open throttle position (lowest pressure =
differential).&nbsp;=20
    I=92d guess there is the presumption that the lubrication =
requirement is only=20
    a function of RPM, and not power output, and the metering control =
level is=20
    for compensation of the changes in pressure =
differential.</SPAN></FONT></P>
    <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DVerdana color=3Dblack =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: =
Verdana"></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</P>
    <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DVerdana color=3Dblack =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: =
Verdana">Al</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>Al,=20
  I just went out and checked it on my RX-7, and I was wrong. The spring =
forces=20
  the pump to the minimum flow. Sorry for the erroneous statement =
earlier. Like=20
  I said in a previous message, I premix 2-stroke with the fuel, and =
just leave=20
  the minimal metering pump flow as a backup, and it puts the oil right =
on the=20
  apex seal, which surely is more effective than relying only on just =
the=20
  dispersed two-stroke oil. The idea of running ONLY with premix has =
always made=20
  me a little nervous so I wasn't willing to remove the stock system =
completely.=20
  Even with it set to minimal flow you can see the oil moving in the=20
  tubes.<BR>For my first 200 hours I flew with the stock system and did =
not add=20
  oil to the gas.<BR>I don't think I buy that statement that the =
metering pump=20
  quits working above =
8000'.<BR><BR>Perry<BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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