X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2014 08:25:57 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: <2thman1@gmail.com> Received: from mail-pd0-f177.google.com ([209.85.192.177] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.9e) with ESMTPS id 6803321 for lml@lancaironline.net; Thu, 27 Mar 2014 19:48:35 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.192.177; envelope-from=2thman1@gmail.com Received: by mail-pd0-f177.google.com with SMTP id y10so4040386pdj.36 for ; Thu, 27 Mar 2014 16:48:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.68.171.193 with SMTP id aw1mr4785124pbc.117.1395964080600; Thu, 27 Mar 2014 16:48:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-Return-Path: <2thman1@gmail.com> Received: from [192.168.1.134] (c-208-53-115-208.customer.broadstripe.net. [208.53.115.208]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id ak1sm14555975pbc.58.2014.03.27.16.47.59 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 27 Mar 2014 16:47:59 -0700 (PDT) References: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-A2FFC8A1-D20F-4121-8B84-6D3D426C3D17 X-Original-Message-Id: <885BB955-386B-48EA-A98B-22909747D5BA@gmail.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: iPad Mail (11D167) From: John Barrett <2thman1@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [LML] TSIO 550 temp sensors X-Original-Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 16:48:00 -0700 X-Original-To: Lancair Mailing List --Apple-Mail-A2FFC8A1-D20F-4121-8B84-6D3D426C3D17 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks a bunch to all responders to my questions. It seems clear that by far= the likely culprits are bad connections rather than sensors. Bill H, thanks= for offer to give up your spare TIT probe and if I can't correct the proble= m as suggested I may ask you to look for it.=20 I did discover that the right TIT probe feeds the left TIT gauge on the VP d= isplay and vice versa. This was discovered through pulling the bayonets and= heating them with a heat gun and measuring temp with an IR sensor while com= paring with the gauge readings. =20 Thought I'd have to change the wiring until I called the new Vertical Power t= ech support. The company that bought VP is in Everett, WA . Chad Jensen is t= he tech support and he lives in WI. I found him to be very responsive and helpful and recommend him highly to al= l VP customers. John 31VP Sent from my iPad > On Mar 26, 2014, at 9:04 AM, "frederickemoreno@gmail.com" wrote: >=20 >=20 > Temperature sensors are by far the least reliable sensors on the engine, a= nd the TIT/EGT are the least reliable of temperature sensors due to the high= temperatures and vibration they must endure.=20 > =20 > This is dredging back many years, but I'll give the old memory neurons a t= ry. > =20 > Modern instruments seem to use K type (chromel/alumel) thermocouples every= where when in years past they were only used for high temperatures. They ha= ve poor output signals at lower temperatures (as with CHTs and Oil temp). O= il temperature used to be measured with Copper-Constantan thermocouples beca= use of better output characteristics at lower tempera. tures.=20 > =20 > Now with sensitive digital electronics capable of handling non linear cali= bration curves and tiny input voltages, even these little little signals are= enough to be detected, corrected for non-linearities, and then used for suf= ficiently accurate displays in our planes. So type K is being used more and= more. > =20 > However...... > =20 > Measuring comparatively low temperatures (compared to EGT/TIT), these tiny= signals can be easily fouled up by dirty connectors, intermittent connectio= ns caused by the small but stiff thermocouple wire wiggling and breaking, an= d other mechanical and electrical resistance faults. It is just the nature o= f the beast.=20 > =20 > My MVP 50 engine monitor reads OAT from a thermocouple in my cabin vent N= ACA duct, and last flight decided to start indicating numbers way above and b= elow the real OAT. Looks like a classic intermittent connection problem. I c= hecked the probe wires today (easy to get to) and wiggled the connector on t= he data box (hard to get to) while a friend watched the readout, but we coul= d not induce an error. Also classic intermittent behavior. My bet: it will= show up next flight, or the flight after that, after a bit of vibration exp= osure. Or it could be a short in the thermocouple wiring somewhere which cre= ates a secondary thermocouple at the short (different location and temperatu= re) that fouls the output of the primary thermocouple. As noted thermocoupl= e wire is stiff and difficult material, not forgiving like multi-strand copp= er. > =20 > Bottom line: suspect connections and wiring as much as the thermocouple ju= nction inside the sheath or fitting. Check for large enough service loops= to absorb vibration, but not so long as to allow the wire to flex between t= ie downs. > =20 > Fred Moreno --Apple-Mail-A2FFC8A1-D20F-4121-8B84-6D3D426C3D17 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks a bunch to all responders to my= questions. It seems clear that by far the likely culprits are bad connectio= ns rather than sensors. Bill H, thanks for offer to give up your spare TIT p= robe and if I can't correct the problem as suggested I may ask you to look f= or it. 

I did discover that the right TIT prob= e feeds the left TIT gauge on the VP display and vice versa.  This was d= iscovered through pulling the bayonets and heating them with a heat gun and m= easuring temp with an IR sensor while comparing with the gauge readings. &nb= sp;

Thought I'd have to change the wiring until I c= alled the new Vertical Power tech support.  The company that bought VP i= s in Everett, WA . Chad Jensen is the tech support and he lives in WI.
=

I found him to be very responsive and helpful and recomm= end him highly to all VP customers.

John
= 31VP

Sent from my iPad

On Mar 26, 2014, at 9:04 AM, "frederickemoreno@gmail.com" <frederickemoreno@gmail.com> wrote:

Temperature sensors are by far the least reliable sensors on the engine= , and the TIT/EGT are the least reliable of temperature sensors due to the h= igh temperatures and vibration they must endure. 
 
This is dredging back many years, but I'll give the old memory neurons a= try.
 
Modern instruments seem to use K type (chromel/alumel) thermocouples ev= erywhere when in years past they were only used for high temperatures. = They have poor output signals at lower temperatures (as with CHTs and Oil t= emp).  Oil temperature used to be measured with Copper-Constantan therm= ocouples because of better output characteristics at lower tempera. tures.&n= bsp;
 
Now with sensitive digital electronics capable of handling non linear c= alibration curves and tiny input voltages, even these little little sig= nals are enough to be detected, corrected for non-linearities, and then used= for sufficiently accurate displays in our planes.  So type K is being u= sed more and more.
 
However......
 
Measuring comparatively low temperatures (compared to EGT/TIT), these t= iny signals can be easily fouled up by dirty connectors, intermittent connec= tions caused by the small but stiff thermocouple wire wiggling and breaking,= and other mechanical and electrical resistance faults.  It is just the= nature of the beast. 
 
 My MVP 50 engine monitor reads OAT from a thermocouple in my cabi= n vent NACA duct, and last flight decided to start indicating numbers way ab= ove and below the real OAT.  Looks like a classic intermittent connecti= on problem. I checked the probe wires today (easy to get to) and wiggled the= connector on the data box (hard to get to) while a friend watched the reado= ut, but we could not induce an error.  Also classic intermittent behavi= or.  My bet: it will show up next flight, or the flight after that, aft= er a bit of vibration exposure. Or it could be a short in the thermocouple w= iring somewhere which creates a secondary thermocouple at the short (differe= nt location and temperature) that fouls the output of the primary therm= ocouple.  As noted thermocouple wire is stiff and difficult material, n= ot forgiving like multi-strand copper.
 
Bottom line: suspect connections and wiring as much as the thermocouple= junction inside the sheath or fitting.    Check for large en= ough service loops to absorb vibration, but not so long as to allow the wire= to flex between tie downs.
 
Fred Moreno
= --Apple-Mail-A2FFC8A1-D20F-4121-8B84-6D3D426C3D17--