X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2013 08:06:46 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: <2thman1@gmail.com> Received: from mail-pa0-f49.google.com ([209.85.220.49] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.5) with ESMTPS id 6350883 for lml@lancaironline.net; Thu, 27 Jun 2013 02:09:27 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.220.49; envelope-from=2thman1@gmail.com Received: by mail-pa0-f49.google.com with SMTP id ld11so581055pab.36 for ; Wed, 26 Jun 2013 23:08:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.68.247.131 with SMTP id ye3mr4372779pbc.87.1372313331753; Wed, 26 Jun 2013 23:08:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-Return-Path: <2thman1@gmail.com> Received: from [192.168.1.109] ([24.56.209.218]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id bg3sm1585090pbb.44.2013.06.26.23.08.50 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 26 Jun 2013 23:08:50 -0700 (PDT) References: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-7E613E14-0538-4CAE-B1D9-A75AD2CB56D4 X-Original-Message-Id: <40880720-B9CE-4F10-959B-D61EF140E78D@gmail.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: iPad Mail (10B329) From: John Barrett <2thman1@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [LML] Re: GAMI test X-Original-Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2013 23:08:48 -0700 X-Original-To: Lancair Mailing List --Apple-Mail-7E613E14-0538-4CAE-B1D9-A75AD2CB56D4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bob and others who kindly added to my knowledge base, thanks. The answer di= ffered from what I expected and in a good way. I know this subject has been= discussed in some depth in the past and now that I need the information I'm= grateful you are willing to rehash it for me. Best, John Barrett Sent from my iPad On Jun 26, 2013, at 7:28 PM, Robert R Pastusek wrote: > John Barrett wrote: > =20 > I probably know the answer to my question before I ask but I am running my= TSIO 550 lean of peak and I want to be sure I am using adequate precautions= and am doing the best for the engine. > =20 > To that end, if my engine baffling is not as good as it could be and I int= end to continue to improve it, will a GAMI test now resulting in, say, a 1 g= ph difference in FF for peak EGT among the 6 cylinders be useful for me to s= end to Tornado Alley for GAMIjectors? In other words, if I improve my baffl= ing after I get George Braly=E2=80=99s fix, will that investment still be re= levant? > =20 > =20 > John, > I=E2=80=99ll take a shot at this and defer to/welcome other comments from t= he experts. > =20 > First of all, baffling changes will not significantly affect EGTs=E2=80=A6= and vice versa. EGTs are a closely-related measure of the power being produc= ed by the cylinder=E2=80=A6 and a host of other factors related to combustio= n. CHT=E2=80=99s are a measure of how much heat is being transferred to the c= ylinder=E2=80=A6and how much is being removed by cooling air. Again, lots of= other factors affect cylinder temperatures, and while logic would tell you t= hat high EGTs will yield high CHTs, the relationship contributes little as c= ompared to other factors. So with this in mind, consider these points. > =20 > To run a TSIO 550 lean of peak, it must be operated below 75% power. My pe= rsonal rule is to run it at or below 65% of rated power. Engine component he= at, and particularly cylinder heat is the limiting factor, and the TSIO-550 c= an produce almost 100% of rated power up into the teens if you leave the con= trols full forward. You=E2=80=99ll find power setting info in the engine man= ual, and if you have a modern engine monitoring system you can probably prog= ram this into the monitor to give a direct readout of horsepower or a percen= tage of max rated=E2=80=A6 With or without this, you need to derive this inf= ormation from total fuel flow (LOP only) or a combination of MP and RPM, but= it=E2=80=99s important that you know--and operate the engine at lower power= settings--if you want to run LOP. (NOTE: Some experts such as John Deakin =E2= =80=9CThe Pelican=E2=80=9D say that you can run these engines LOP at 100% of= rated power AS LONG AS YOU CAN KEEP THEM COOL, but then acknowledge that as= a practical matter this can=E2=80=99t be done with current production aircr= aft engines=E2=80=A6they produce too much heat for the available cooling sy= stems at high power settings. > =20 > When you run rich of peak, some of the fuel is used directly for cooling a= nd passes through the engine without burning. As a matter of course, it cool= s by evaporation, and leaves nasty lead and other deposits behind=E2=80=A6on= plugs, valves, etc. So when you run LOP and eliminate this source of coolin= g, you must offset it by either reducing power (total heat produced) or incr= easing cooling (better baffling). So as you lean the mixture toward max cyli= nder EGT, you=E2=80=99re reducing the amount of fuel available for cooling a= nd the CHT=E2=80=99s go up. With most Continental engines, this doesn=E2=80=99= t happen at the same fuel flow for all cylinders, that is, one cylinder reac= hes peak EGT at a given fuel flow (around 16-17 GPH if you=E2=80=99re runnin= g about 65% power) as you lean, while the other cylinders are still rich of p= eak EGT. You need to note the fuel flow when the first cylinder reaches peak= EGT. As you continue to lean, the EGT (and CHT to a lesser extent) of the f= irst to peak starts going down, while the remaining cylinder EGTs (and CHTs)= continue to go up. Eventually, all cylinders reach peak EGT and start decre= asing. Note the fuel flow when the last cylinder reaches peak EGT and just s= tarts to decrease. The difference in fuel flow between first and last cylind= er EGT to peak is the =E2=80=9CGAMI lean test.=E2=80=9D Ideally, the fuel fl= ow between first and last should be less than 1 GPH; use of GAMIs can tune t= his to less than half a gallon per hour, BUT NOTE THAT THIS IS OPTIMIZED FOR= ONLY ONE POWER/RPM setting, so you should test/set up the engine at the nor= mally-expected cruise power setting. > =20 > Here=E2=80=99s the rub: You need to be sure all cylinders are at least 30 d= egrees below their peak EGT when operating the engine in cruise power, and t= his is critically important when LOP. Ideally, all cylinders are all operati= ng at about the same amount below their individual peak EGTs, but the actual= temperatures are not significant=E2=80=A6it=E2=80=99s the peak value and de= lta below--for each cylinder--that=E2=80=99s significant. If the fuel flow i= s not well balanced among the cylinders, the first to peak EGT will get so l= ean by the time that you get the last to 30 degrees below peak EGT that the f= irst to peak starts mis-firing. My cylinders start mis-firing at about 120 d= egrees LOP as a reference point. Mine are well enough balanced (no GAMIs) th= at I can operate the richest cylinder at 60 degrees LOP and the leanest cyli= nder (first to peak when leaning) will remain below 100 degrees LOP. That eq= uates to about a 0.5 GPH fuel flow difference FOR MY ENGINE=E2=80=A6but this= varies a lot from engine to engine, and with the power/RPM setting.=20 > =20 > BTW, the TIT=E2=80=99s ARE CRITICAL, and you=E2=80=99ll want to watch thes= e while you=E2=80=99re fiddling with the EGTs. Continental says the max TIT i= s 1750 and the max continuous is 1650. I am more conservative, and have a =E2= =80=9Cyellow warning=E2=80=9D set at 1550 and a =E2=80=9Cred alarm=E2=80=9D s= et at 1650. As you lean the engine, TIT=E2=80=99s will increase with EGTs, a= nd will continue to increase for a short time after the first EGT peaks are r= eached, and then start decreasing. I normally see about 1500 on my TITs in c= ruise flight; I lean the mixture more if they go above 1550 in cruise flight= . > =20 > Continental says the max CHT is 460 degrees. I am pretty convinced you=E2=80= =99ll cook your cylinders if you operate them anywhere close to that in nor= mal cruise flight. I have a =E2=80=9Cyellow warning=E2=80=9D set at 400 and a= =E2=80=9Cred alarm=E2=80=9D at 420. I only see these temps during high powe= r climbs between about 12,000 and 16,000, when the engine is still producing= lots of power but the air is starting to thin/provide fewer molecules to ca= rry away the heat. In any case, when my CHT=E2=80=99s get to 420, I increase= the fuel flow (low boost if not already on) , richen the mixture control (c= limbing ROP anyway) and/or increase airspeed. As a last resort, I=E2=80=99d p= ull the power back, but have never had to do this=E2=80=A6yet. > =20 > As to CHTs during cruise flight. Get the fuel flow to the cylinders balanc= ed first=E2=80=A6effectively you are making each cylinder produce approximat= ely the same amount of power (yields a smoother running engine)--and heat. R= emember that this will be optimized only for a small range of power/RPM sett= ings. Then go to work on balancing the CHTs. This is (at least theoretically= ) much easier than balancing the fuel flows and EGT peaks because you can do= many things to change the cooling air flow across the cylinders--and that=E2= =80=99s the only variable IF you=E2=80=99ve balanced the fuel flow/cylinder p= ower output. Working CHT=E2=80=99s first just won=E2=80=99t yield good resul= ts=E2=80=A6you=E2=80=99ll wind up doing it over and over=E2=80=A6 > =20 > Back to precautions you asked about: > 1) If you=E2=80=99re running LOP, be sure you have the engine produci= ng less than 75% of its rated power; below 65% if you=E2=80=99re conservativ= e. > 2) Be sure that every cylinder is LOP and that the hottest EGT is at l= east 30 degrees below the cylinder=E2=80=99s max EGT (without consideration o= f the actual value, nor the values of any other cylinder) > 3) Keep the TITs below 1650 degrees; ideally below 1550. > 4) Keep the CHT=E2=80=99s below 420; ideally below 400 (If you do the= above things, they will likely be in the 300-340 degree range) > =20 > As to GAMI=E2=80=99s: if you can get the engine to run smoothly, without m= is-firing, with the richest cylinder (last to max EGT as you lean) at least 3= 0 degrees LOP you probably don=E2=80=99t need GAMIs. Older Continentals won=E2= =80=99t do this; the newer ones have a Continental version of GAMIs (flow-ma= tched injectors) and are better, but not as good/close as the fine-tuned GAM= Is. A second measure of evaluation is fuel flow. If the fuel flow between th= e first and last cylinders to peak is greater than 0.5 GPH, GAMIs will impro= ve this, and likely result in a smoother-running engine. > =20 > LOTS of stuff here; hope it helps both setup and understanding=E2=80=A6 >=20 > Bob --Apple-Mail-7E613E14-0538-4CAE-B1D9-A75AD2CB56D4 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Bob and others who kindly added to my k= nowledge base, thanks.  The answer differed from what I expected and in= a good way.  I know this subject has been discussed in some depth in t= he past and now that I need the information I'm grateful you are willing to r= ehash it for me.

Best,
John Barrett
Sent from my iPad


On Jun 26, 2013, at 7:28 PM= , Robert R Pastusek <rpastusek@htii= .com> wrote:

=

John Barrett wrote:

 

I probably know the answer to my question before I as= k but I am running my TSIO 550 lean of peak and I want to be sure I am using= adequate precautions and am doing the best for the engine.

 

To that end, if my engine baffling is not as good as i= t could be and I intend to continue to improve it, will a GAMI test now resu= lting in, say, a 1 gph difference in FF for  peak EGT among the 6 cylin= ders be useful for me to send to Tornado Alley for GAMIjectors?  In other words, if I improve my baffling after= I get George Braly=E2=80=99s fix, will that investment still be relevant?

 

 

John,
I=E2=80=99ll take a shot at this and defer to/welcome other comments from th= e experts.

 

First of all, baffling changes will not significantly affect EGTs=E2= =80=A6and vice versa. EGTs are a closely-related measure of the power being produced by the cylinder=E2=80=A6 and a host of o= ther factors related to combustion. CHT=E2=80=99s are a measure of how much h= eat is being transferred to the cylinder=E2=80=A6and how much is being remov= ed by cooling air. Again, lots of other factors affect cylinder temperatures, and while logic would tell you that high EGTs will y= ield high CHTs, the relationship contributes little as compared to other fac= tors. So with this in mind, consider these points.

 

To run a TSIO 550 lean of peak, it must be operated below 75% powe= r. My personal rule is to run it at or below 65% of rated power. Engine component heat, and particularly cylinder heat i= s the limiting factor, and the TSIO-550 can produce almost 100% of rated pow= er up into the teens if you leave the controls full forward. You=E2=80=99ll f= ind power setting info in the engine manual, and if you have a modern engine monitoring system you can probably p= rogram this into the monitor to give a direct readout of horsepower or a per= centage of max rated=E2=80=A6 With or without this, you need to derive this i= nformation from total fuel flow (LOP only) or a combination of MP and RPM, but it=E2=80=99s important that you k= now--and operate the engine at lower power settings--if you want to run LOP.= (NOTE: Some experts such as John Deakin =E2=80=9CThe Pelican=E2=80=9D say that y= ou can run these engines LOP at 100% of rated power AS LONG AS YOU CAN KEEP T= HEM COOL, but then acknowledge that as a practical matter this can=E2=80=99t= be done with current production aircraft engines=E2=80=A6they produce too much heat for the available cooling systems at high power setti= ngs.

 

When you run rich of peak, some of the fuel is used directly for c= ooling and passes through the engine without burning. As a matter of course, it cools by evaporation, and leaves nasty l= ead and other deposits behind=E2=80=A6on plugs, valves, etc. So when you run= LOP and eliminate this source of cooling, you must offset it by either redu= cing power (total heat produced) or increasing cooling (better baffling). So as you lean the mixture toward max cylinder E= GT, you=E2=80=99re reducing the amount of fuel available for cooling and the= CHT=E2=80=99s go up. With most Continental engines, this doesn=E2=80=99t ha= ppen at the same fuel flow for all cylinders, that is, one cylinder reaches peak EGT at a given fuel flow (around 16-17 GPH if you= =E2=80=99re running about 65% power) as you lean, while the other cylinders a= re still rich of peak EGT. You need to note the fuel flow when the first cyl= inder reaches peak EGT. As you continue to lean, the EGT (and CHT to a lesser extent) of the first to peak starts g= oing down, while the remaining cylinder EGTs (and CHTs) continue to go up. E= ventually, all cylinders reach peak EGT and start decreasing. Note the fuel f= low when the last cylinder reaches peak EGT and just starts to decrease. The difference in fuel flow between f= irst and last cylinder EGT to peak is the =E2=80=9CGAMI lean test.=E2=80=9D I= deally, the fuel flow between first and last should be less than 1 GPH; use o= f GAMIs can tune this to less than half a gallon per hour, BUT NOTE THAT THIS IS OPTIMIZED FOR ONLY ONE POWER/RPM setting, s= o you should test/set up the engine at the normally-expected cruise power se= tting.

 

Here=E2=80=99s the rub: You need to be sure all cylinders are at l= east 30 degrees below their peak EGT when operating the engine in cruise power, and this is critically important when LOP. Idea= lly, all cylinders are all operating at about the same amount below their in= dividual peak EGTs, but the actual temperatures are not significant=E2=80=A6= it=E2=80=99s the peak value and delta below--for each cylinder--that=E2=80=99s significant. If the fuel flow is not well bal= anced among the cylinders, the first to peak EGT will get so lean by the tim= e that you get the last to 30 degrees below peak EGT that the first to peak s= tarts mis-firing. My cylinders start mis-firing at about 120 degrees LOP as a reference point. Min= e are well enough balanced (no GAMIs) that I can operate the richest cylinde= r at 60 degrees LOP and the leanest cylinder (first to peak when leaning) will remain below 100 degrees LOP. Th= at equates to about a 0.5 GPH fuel flow difference FOR MY ENGINE=E2=80=A6but= this varies a lot from engine to engine, and with the power/RPM setting. 

 

BTW, the TIT=E2=80=99s ARE CRITICAL, and you=E2=80=99ll want to wa= tch these while you=E2=80=99re fiddling with the EGTs. Continental says the max TIT is 1750 and the max continuous is 1650. I am more conserva= tive, and have a =E2=80=9Cyellow warning=E2=80=9D set at 1550 and a =E2=80=9C= red alarm=E2=80=9D set at 1650. As you lean the engine, TIT=E2=80=99s will i= ncrease with EGTs, and will continue to increase for a short time after the first EGT peaks are reached, and then start decreasing. I normally see a= bout 1500 on my TITs in cruise flight; I lean the mixture more if they go ab= ove 1550 in cruise flight.

 

Continental says the max CHT is 460 degrees. I am pretty convinced= you=E2=80=99ll cook your cylinders if you operate them anywhere close to that in normal cruise flight. I have a =E2=80=9Cyell= ow warning=E2=80=9D set at 400 and a =E2=80=9Cred alarm=E2=80=9D at 420. I o= nly see these temps during high power climbs between about 12,000 and 16,000= , when the engine is still producing lots of power but the air is starting to thin/provide fewer molecules to carry away the heat. In any c= ase, when my CHT=E2=80=99s get to 420, I increase the fuel flow (low boost i= f not already on) , richen the mixture control (climbing ROP anyway) and/or i= ncrease airspeed. As a last resort, I=E2=80=99d pull the power back, but have never had to do this=E2=80=A6yet.=

 

As to CHTs during cruise flight. Get the fuel flow to the cylinder= s balanced first=E2=80=A6effectively you are making each cylinder produce approximately the same amount of power (yields a smoo= ther running engine)--and heat. Remember that this will be optimized only fo= r a small range of power/RPM settings. Then go to work on balancing the CHTs= . This is (at least theoretically) much easier than balancing the fuel flows and EGT peaks because you can do m= any things to change the cooling air flow across the cylinders--and that=E2=80= =99s the only variable IF you=E2=80=99ve balanced the fuel flow/cylinder pow= er output. Working CHT=E2=80=99s first just won=E2=80=99t yield good results=E2=80=A6you=E2=80=99ll wind up doing it over and over=E2= =80=A6

 

Back to precautions you asked about:

<= span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">1)      If you=E2=80=99re running LOP, be sure you have the en= gine producing less than 75% of its rated power; below 65% if you=E2=80=99re conservative.

<= span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">2)      Be sure that every cylinder is LOP and that the hottes= t EGT is at least 30 degrees below the cylinder=E2=80=99s max EGT (without consideration of the actual value, nor the values of any o= ther cylinder)

<= span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">3)      Keep the TITs below 1650 degrees; ideally below 1550.<= o:p>

<= span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">4)      Keep the CHT=E2=80=99s below 420; ideally below 400 (I= f you do the above things, they will likely be in the 300-340 degree range)

 

As to GAMI=E2=80=99s: if you can get the engine to run smoothly, w= ithout mis-firing, with the richest cylinder (last to= max EGT as you lean) at least 30 degrees LOP you probably don=E2=80=99t nee= d GAMIs. Older Continentals won=E2=80=99t do this; the newer ones have a Con= tinental version of GAMIs (flow-matched injectors) and are better, but not as good/close as the fine-tuned GAMIs. A second mea= sure of evaluation is fuel flow. If the fuel flow between the first and last= cylinders to peak is greater than 0.5 GPH, GAMIs will improve this, and lik= ely result in a smoother-running engine.

 

LOTS of stuff here; hope it helps both setup and understanding=E2=80= =A6


Bob

= --Apple-Mail-7E613E14-0538-4CAE-B1D9-A75AD2CB56D4--