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From: Gary Casey <casey.gary@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: Gary Casey <casey.gary@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: oil going overboard
In-Reply-To: <1352203840.94179.YahooMailNeo@web120102.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
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=0AA very interesting subject, and I'll like to see if there is any resolut=
ion.=A0 I do have a=A0few comments:=0A1.=A0 I'm a bit of=A0a skeptic on "ri=
ng flutter", but the piston ring requires some pressure against the bore an=
d the ring land=A0to maintain a seal.=A0 Under some conditions of low manif=
old pressure it could come "unloaded" and allow significant oil to pass.=A0=
 But remember that for half the time there is virtually no pressure in the =
cylinder, so how does one explain that?=A0 However, the subject of ring sea=
ling is complex and there could be a condition=A0of pressure and speed=A0un=
der which the ring loses its ability to control oil flow, so whether you ca=
ll it flutter or something else, it can be real.=A0 Continental went to a l=
ot of work to develop the iron piston liner and I'm sure that helps keep a =
consistent piston ring environment.=A0 If the ring don't seall really well,=
 if the manifold pessure is reduced significantly below atmospheric the=A0l=
ow pressure=A0could draw significant oil into the engine.=A0 This would be =
during descent or on the ground.=A0 But that
 doesn't sound like it is the issue in this case.=0A2.=A0 Air/oil separator=
s are a bit of a mystery to me.=A0 I worry about the drain line because the=
re is so little elevation to drain the oil.=A0 Note that the separator is o=
nly a few inches=A0above the engine oil level.=A0 What happens if the crank=
case pressure is just a little higher than the pressure in the separator?=
=A0 That could happen if there were even a little restriction between the e=
ngine and separator - there would be a pressure drop between the crankcase =
and separator volume.=A0 And what if the drain line is below the oil level =
- or maybe=A0at a location that gets a lot of oil splash?=A0 Then the engin=
e will pump oil=A0OUT the drain line, filling the separator, and pump oil o=
verboard.=A0 I wonder if that isn't the issue.=A0 Even if there are 10 inch=
es of elevation in the drain line it would take only 7 inches water pressur=
e=A0to pump oil up 10 inches.=0A3.=A0 I think the post mentioning crankcase=
 pressure of 5 psi must have meant 5 inches of water(1 psi is equivalent to=
 about 12 inches of water).=A0 5 psi is really high and if true indicates a=
 serious problem or a restriction in the breather=A0system.=0A4.=A0 I'm ske=
ptical of the breather outlet condition (into the exhaust or other details =
of location) being a significant factor.=A0=A0For instance, a reduction=A0i=
n pressure at the outlet can't "suck" oil out of the crankcase.=A0 At least=
 I can't think of a way that could happen.=0AJust a few thoughts - I'm inte=
rested to read about the outcome of this thread.=0AGary Casey=0A=0AOn Mon, =
Nov 5, 2012 at 4:39 PM, Dan Ballin <dballin@gmail.com> wrote:=0A=0AI am fly=
ing a Lancair Legacy with an IO-550  10:1 compression -=0A>Performance engi=
ne that has been inspected and rebuilt about 60 hrs=0A>ago.   I have had a =
problem, which I attributed to new cylinder/rings,=0A>with excessive oil co=
nsumption.  Initially I was using about a qt an=0A>hour and this improved a=
t about 15 hrs.  Seemed like normal break in.=0A>Then one flight back from =
the  coast of OR (Sea Level - I fly out of=0A>Bend  - 3500 ft), I started=
=0A losing oil pressure.  When I landed after=0A>the hour flight I had abou=
t 5 qts left.  I started with 9.  I=0A>attributed it to a crazy idea I had =
to hook the breather tube into the=0A>exhaust.  I was getting really tired =
of cleaning the bottom of the=0A>plane and my hangar floor.   I disconnecte=
d it and flew and problem=0A>solved.  Just recently on a trip back East the=
 same thing happened.=0A>Got to Rawlings, Wy 8.5 qts running grat no proble=
ms.  Next stop about=0A>1.5 hrs, 2 added qts.  On my way to Kansas City oil=
 pressure dropping=0A>slowly so I diverted and now I was down to 4-5 qts.  =
After spending=0A>the night in Kansas city and buying a case of oil, I flew=
 back to=0A>Bend.  Used 1/2 qt in 6 hrs.=0A>=0A>So a few things.  I have a =
12 qt oil pan, I have an air/oil separator,=0A>I checked my crank pressure =
by hooking a pressure gauge to the=0A>breather (before the separator) and i=
t is high somewhere in the 4-5=0A>psi.  I did a compression check=0A and.=
=0A>=0A>OK so why intermittently dumping from the oil breather?=0A>
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<html><body><div style=3D"color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:bo=
okman old style, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt"><div><span></span>A=
 very interesting subject, and I'll like to see if there is any resolution.=
&nbsp; I do have a&nbsp;few comments:</div><div style=3D"font-family: bookm=
an old style, new york, times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"><div style=3D"font-=
family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"><div id=
=3D"yiv343066776"><div><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: book=
man old style, new york, times, serif; font-size: 12pt; background-color: r=
gb(255, 255, 255);"><div>1.&nbsp; I'm a bit of&nbsp;a skeptic on "ring flut=
ter", but the piston ring requires some pressure against the bore and the r=
ing land&nbsp;to maintain a seal.&nbsp; Under some conditions of low manifo=
ld pressure it could come "unloaded" and allow significant oil to pass.&nbs=
p; But remember that for half the time there is virtually no pressure in th=
e
 cylinder, so how does one explain that?&nbsp; However, the subject of ring=
 sealing is complex and there could be a condition&nbsp;of pressure and spe=
ed&nbsp;under which the ring loses its ability to control oil flow, so whet=
her you call it flutter or something else, it can be real.&nbsp; Continenta=
l went to a lot of work to develop the iron piston liner=0A and I'm sure th=
at helps keep a consistent piston ring environment.&nbsp; If the ring don't=
 seall really well, if the manifold pessure is reduced significantly below =
atmospheric the&nbsp;low pressure&nbsp;could draw significant oil into the =
engine.&nbsp; This would be during descent or on the ground.&nbsp; But that=
 doesn't sound like it is the issue in this case.</div><div>2.&nbsp; Air/oi=
l separators are a bit of a mystery to me.&nbsp; I worry about the drain li=
ne because there is so little elevation to drain the oil.&nbsp; Note that t=
he separator is only a few inches&nbsp;above the engine oil level.&nbsp; Wh=
at happens if the crankcase pressure is just a little higher than the press=
ure in the separator?&nbsp; That could happen if there were even a little r=
estriction between the engine and separator - there would be a pressure dro=
p between the crankcase and separator volume.&nbsp; And what if the drain l=
ine is below the oil level - or maybe&nbsp;at a=0A location that gets a lot=
 of oil splash?&nbsp; Then the engine will pump oil&nbsp;OUT the drain line=
, filling the separator, and pump oil overboard.&nbsp; I wonder if that isn=
't the issue.&nbsp; Even if there are 10 inches of elevation in the drain l=
ine it would take only 7 inches water pressure&nbsp;to pump oil up 10 inche=
s.</div><div>3.&nbsp; I think the post mentioning crankcase pressure of 5 p=
si must have meant 5 inches of water(1 psi is equivalent to about 12 inches=
 of water).&nbsp; 5 psi is really high and if true indicates a serious prob=
lem or a restriction in the breather&nbsp;system.</div><div>4.&nbsp; I'm sk=
eptical of the breather outlet condition (into the exhaust or other details=
 of location) being a significant factor.&nbsp;&nbsp;For instance, a reduct=
ion&nbsp;in pressure at the outlet can't "suck" oil out of the crankcase.&n=
bsp; At least I can't think of a way that could happen.</div><div>Just a fe=
w thoughts - I'm interested to read about=0A the outcome of this thread.</d=
iv><div>Gary Casey</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>On Mon, Nov 5, 2012 at 4:39 P=
M, Dan Ballin <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dballin@gmail.com" re=
l=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" ymailto=3D"mailto:dballin@gmail.com"><font=
 color=3D"#0066cc">dballin@gmail.com</font></a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br></div>=
<blockquote style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex; border-l=
eft-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: s=
olid;" class=3D"yiv343066776gmail_quote">I am flying a Lancair Legacy with =
an IO-550  10:1 compression -<br>Performance engine that has been inspected=
 and rebuilt about 60 hrs<br>ago.   I have had a problem, which I attribute=
d to new cylinder/rings,<br>with excessive oil consumption.  Initially I wa=
s using about a qt an<br>hour and this improved at about 15 hrs.  Seemed li=
ke normal break in.<br>Then one flight back from the  coast of OR (Sea Leve=
l - I fly out of<br>Bend  - 3500 ft), I started=0A losing oil pressure.  Wh=
en I landed after<br>the hour flight I had about 5 qts left.  I started wit=
h 9.  I<br>attributed it to a crazy idea I had to hook the breather tube in=
to the<br>exhaust.  I was getting really tired of cleaning the bottom of th=
e<br>plane and my hangar floor.   I disconnected it and flew and problem<br=
>solved.  Just recently on a trip back East the same thing happened.<br>Got=
 to Rawlings, Wy 8.5 qts running grat no problems.  Next stop about<br>1.5 =
hrs, 2 added qts.  On my way to Kansas City oil pressure dropping<br>slowly=
 so I diverted and now I was down to 4-5 qts.  After spending<br>the night =
in Kansas city and buying a case of oil, I flew back to<br>Bend.  Used 1/2 =
qt in 6 hrs.<br><br>So a few things.  I have a 12 qt oil pan, I have an air=
/oil separator,<br>I checked my crank pressure by hooking a pressure gauge =
to the<br>breather (before the separator) and it is high somewhere in the 4=
-5<br>psi.  I did a compression check=0A and.<br><br>OK so why intermittent=
ly dumping from the oil breather?<br></blockquote></div></div></div><br><br=
> </div> </div>  </div></body></html>
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