X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2011 13:39:42 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from imr-ma02.mx.aol.com ([64.12.206.40] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4c3j) with ESMTP id 4959435 for lml@lancaironline.net; Wed, 27 Apr 2011 12:14:47 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.12.206.40; envelope-from=Sky2high@aol.com Received: from imo-da01.mx.aol.com (imo-da01.mx.aol.com [205.188.169.199]) by imr-ma02.mx.aol.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id p3RGDe82027775 for ; Wed, 27 Apr 2011 12:13:40 -0400 Received: from Sky2high@aol.com by imo-da01.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v42.9.) id q.ea9.13687dfc (55734) for ; Wed, 27 Apr 2011 12:13:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from magic-m24.mail.aol.com (magic-m24.mail.aol.com [172.20.22.197]) by cia-md04.mx.aol.com (v129.10) with ESMTP id MAILCIAMD041-d9b64db840b012a; Wed, 27 Apr 2011 12:13:36 -0400 From: Sky2high@aol.com X-Original-Message-ID: <3e4ff.4cf58341.3ae99ab0@aol.com> X-Original-Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2011 12:13:36 EDT Subject: Re: [LML] Re: beware, you may be searched! X-Original-To: lml@lancaironline.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_3e4ff.4cf58341.3ae99ab0_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 9.6 sub 130 X-AOL-IP: 24.15.17.119 X-Spam-Flag:NO X-AOL-SENDER: Sky2high@aol.com --part1_3e4ff.4cf58341.3ae99ab0_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en Jeff, =20 It was nice talking with you while you were at KARR. =20 I agree that the conduct of CBP is outside the law and the specific =20 activities at your airport are oppressive.=20 =20 My response was meant to help us normal pilots to understand our rights= =20 (don't have to allow search) and the obligations to produce certain docum= ents=20 either when requested or in a reasonable time frame. Again, the police= =20 would need a drug dog present when they stopped you - they cannot detain= you=20 in order to order up the big sniff. BTW, I recently read that such dogs= =20 are only about 45% accurate and respond more to the mood of the handler= than=20 the check they are to be doing. =20 I would say that Aero-news needs to look into CBP more deeply than the=20 fluff piece that was done recently. =20 Scott =20 =20 In a message dated 4/26/2011 7:49:07 A.M. Central Daylight Time, =20 vtailjeff@aol.com writes: Scott, The point I have been making is two fold. One, the CBP is lying to local= =20 police agencies to get them out to the airport to apprehend, arrest, and= =20 detain pilots. How would a Federal CBP officer in California know a Lancai= r =20 pilot taking off from an airport in Phoenix had a fugitive onboard? Answer= -- =20 he didn't-- he just made it up to justify an unlawful search to the local= =20 police in St. Louis. Three pilots at my airport in two years, including = =20 placement of a camera at our airport to watch us guilty pilots coming and= =20 going. Lying is not probable cause. Two, the CFRs cited below do not constitute a legal requirement on to =20 detain anyone. In 40 years of flying I have never seen anyone ask for any= of =20 these documents. Now all of a sudden CBP is using these documents to justi= fy =20 detaining pilots until they can get a drug dog to search your aircraft. CB= P =20 believes GA aircraft are a security threat to America. Btw I am at KARR this week at Luminair. Jeff Sent from my iPad On Apr 25, 2011, at 12:13 PM, _Sky2high@aol.com_ (mailto:Sky2high@aol.com)= =20 wrote: Jeff, et al, =20 Examining the AMOC document and aside from obvious errors: =20 Items 1-4 are fairly correct. =20 5. The clear intention of Title 14 section 61.51 1 Presentation of =20 Required Documents has to be taken in context - While the pilot must resp= ond to a=20 "reasonable request" to produce a pilot's logbook, this section further= and=20 specifically states that the logbook of a student, sport or recreational= =20 pilot must be carried in the aircraft. There is no such specificity for= =20 other pilot licenses. =20 6. The claim made here is correctly clarified later in that Title 14=20 section 91.417(c) only requires a 337 be carried if it refers to a fuel = tank=20 installed in the cockpit or baggage area. =20 ***Caveat*** is more interesting. =20 Reasonable detention is open to interpretation. It has been held that= =20 detaining someone stopped for a traffic violation until drug dogs could= be=20 obtained was not reasonable=E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6.. This is probably= why is says "Canine Unit=20 on the scene."=20 Clarification of warrant/probable cause:=20 The Supreme Court has created a special exception to the warrant=20 requirement for a mobile conveyance. Mobile conveyances are cars, trucks= , boats,=20 motorcycles, airplanes, riding lawn mowers, golf carts, baby carriages,= etc.=20 There are three requirements that have to be met in order to search a=20 vehicle. =20 First, the vehicle has to be in a public place. The mobile conveyance=20 exception to the warrant requirement doesn=E2=80=99t apply if a car is in= a garage or=20 on the curtilage of a home. Hangar? =20 Second, the vehicle has to be readily mobile. This means the vehicle must= =20 appear to be operational to a reasonable person; however, it=E2=80=99s not= =20 necessary that the vehicle be moving or even occupied.=20 Third, there has to be probable cause to believe that contraband or=20 evidence of a crime will be located in the vehicle. =20 If all three of those requirements are met the court will excuse the=20 requirement that the officer obtain a warrant.=20 The mobile conveyance exception excuses the warrant requirement; It does= n=E2=80=99 t excuse the probable cause requirement.=20 Good Luck!=20 Scott Krueger =3D --part1_3e4ff.4cf58341.3ae99ab0_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en <= FONT id=3Drole_document color=3D#000000 size=3D2 face=3DArial>
Jeff,
 
It was nice talking with you while you were at KARR.
 
I agree that the conduct of CBP is outside the law and the specific= =20 activities at your airport are oppressive.
 
My response was meant to help us normal pilots=20 to understand our rights (don't have to allow search) and= the=20 obligations to produce certain documents either when requested or in a=20 reasonable time frame.  Again, the police would need a drug dog prese= nt=20 when they stopped you - they cannot detain you in order to order up the bi= g=20 sniff.  BTW, I recently read that such dogs are only about 45% accura= te and=20 respond more to the mood of the handler than the check they are to be=20 doing.
 
I would say that Aero-news needs to look into CBP more deeply th= an=20 the fluff piece that was done recently.
 
Scott
 
In a message dated 4/26/2011 7:49:07 A.M. Central Daylight Time,=20 vtailjeff@aol.com writes:
Scott,

The point I have been making is two fold. One, the CBP is lying to= local=20 police agencies to get them out to the airport to apprehend, arrest, and= =20 detain pilots. How would a Federal CBP officer in California know a Lanc= air=20 pilot taking off from an airport in Phoenix had a fugitive onboard? Answ= er --=20 he didn't-- he just made it up to justify an unlawful search to the loca= l=20 police in St. Louis. Three pilots at my airport in two years, including= =20 placement of a camera at our airport to watch us guilty pilots coming an= d=20 going. Lying is not probable cause.

Two, the CFRs cited below do not constitute a legal requirement on= to=20 detain anyone. In 40 years of flying I have never seen anyone ask for an= y of=20 these documents. Now all of a sudden CBP is using these documents to jus= tify=20 detaining pilots until they can get a drug dog to search your aircraft.= CBP=20 believes GA aircraft are a security threat to America.

Btw I am at KARR this week at Luminair.

Jeff

Sent from my iPad

On Apr 25, 2011, at 12:13 PM, Sky2high@aol.com wrote:

=
Jeff, et al,
 
Examining the AMOC document and aside from obvious errors:
 
Items 1-4 are fairly correct.
 
5. The clear intention of Title 14 section 61.51 1 Presentation= of=20 Required Documents has to be taken in context - While the pi= lot=20 must respond to a "reasonable request" to produce a pilot's logbo= ok,=20 this section further and specifically states that the logbook of= a=20 student, sport or recreational pilot must be carried in the aircraft.&= nbsp;=20 There is no such specificity for other pilot licenses.
 
6. The claim made here is correctly clarified later in that= Title=20 14 section 91.417(c) only requires a 337 be carried if it refers to a= fuel=20 tank installed in the cockpit or baggage area.
 
***Caveat*** is more interesting. =20

Reasonable= detention=20 is open to interpretation.  It=20 has been held that detaining someone stopped for a traffic violation= until=20 drug dogs could be obtained was not reasonable=E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6=E2=80= =A6..  This is probably=20 why is says "Canine Unit on the scene."

 

Clarificat= ion of=20 warrant/probable cause:

 

= The=20 Supreme Court has created a special exception to the warrant requireme= nt for=20 a mobile conveyance. Mobile conveyances are=20 cars, trucks, boats, motorcycles, airplanes, riding lawn mowers, golf= carts,=20 baby carriages, etc.

= There=20 are three requirements that have to be met in order to search a vehicl= e.=20

= First,=20 the vehicle has to be in a public place. The mobile conveyance exception= to the warrant=20 requirement doesn=E2=80=99t apply if a car is in a garage or on the cu= rtilage of a=20 home. Hangar?

= Second,=20 the vehicle has to be readily mobile. This means the ve= hicle must=20 appear to be operational to a reasonable person; however, it=E2=80=99s= not necessary=20 that the vehicle be moving or even occupied.

= Third,=20 there has to be probable cause to believe that contraband or evidence= of a=20 crime will be located in the vehicle.

= If all=20 three of those requirements are met the court will excuse the requirem= ent=20 that the officer obtain a warrant.

The= =20 mobile convey= ance exception excuses the warrant=20 requirement; It doesn=E2=80=99t excuse the probable cause requirement<= /SPAN>.

 

Good Luck!=

 

Scott=20 Krueger

=3D
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