X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2011 10:38:00 -0500 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com ([75.180.132.123] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4c2o) with ESMTP id 4892696 for lml@lancaironline.net; Sun, 06 Mar 2011 10:57:22 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=75.180.132.123; envelope-from=super_chipmunk@roadrunner.com X-Original-Return-Path: X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=uESSSoDEku2quKX/oFXS2Smn5+55LTFcWFr5T5T8nFs= c=1 sm=0 a=4ae3W2DPsRMA:10 a=35Tvjzvas7lBNn8+H1IYgA==:17 a=pZxUwlfcAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=5FIZSGrRAAAA:8 a=ndVRne3UAAAA:8 a=biznXsr5AAAA:8 a=AAvYLDLOAAAA:8 a=oCcaPWc0AAAA:8 a=rEvN3tPvYCACxThfKDsA:9 a=GE2xwjFBZPotkqKI_tgA:7 a=6RpZgfjj7OG_kUXdSx0nmoVUmqEA:4 a=wPNLvfGTeEIA:10 a=Buz7Z9PVo5EA:10 a=wR8WdYEwGqoA:10 a=8s3OY_6JReoA:10 a=ILeVjEvywfEA:10 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=amP8cGQ10gkA:10 a=s2loLT2QvaoA:10 a=CjxXgO3LAAAA:8 a=yU_HVIA_zMCm_Io-hTAA:9 a=AcCJRmWXgx3z4CIQLbYA:7 a=k64zjA1mCbWPeKCevn9ukLlE9BgA:4 a=rC2wZJ5BpNYA:10 a=35Tvjzvas7lBNn8+H1IYgA==:117 X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 X-Originating-IP: 69.205.15.200 Received: from [69.205.15.200] ([69.205.15.200:63820] helo=Laptop) by cdptpa-oedge01.mail.rr.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 2.2.3.46 r()) with ESMTP id 43/3E-07087-DBEA37D4; Sun, 06 Mar 2011 15:56:46 +0000 X-Original-Message-ID: <99F23FFE759340EFB334878893AA5AAF@Laptop> From: "Bill Wade" X-Original-To: "Lancair Mailing List" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Lancair 360 Inner Doors X-Original-Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2011 10:56:47 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_06B7_01CBDBED.302DC870" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Mail 6.0.6002.18197 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.0.6002.18263 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_06B7_01CBDBED.302DC870 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm in the process of installing Carbinges on the MG doors on a IV-P. = The supplied pin had more play than I liked but I was able to find VAR = stainless wire at Small Parts = http://www.smallparts.com/stainless-precision-ground-straightened-vacuum-= arc/dp/B003R50276/ref=3Dsr_1_2?sr=3D1-2&qid=3D1299411175 . It's highly = polished which helps insertion and should help to reduce wear. Another = option would be straightened music wire, which they also sell. I tried a selection of diameters and found that the 0.083 is a good = fit. It might be possible to use larger sizes if the hinges loosen. The = wire is bendable and a keeper loop can be formed into it with some = effort. If the hinges should wear out before I do I think it might be = possible to remove the nylon inserts and thread new tubing into the = hinge, then use a razor or X-acto to cut excess out of the gaps. The = alternative- removing the the Carbinges- would not be something I'd = enjoy doing. -Bill Wade ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Chris Zavatson=20 To: lml@lancaironline.net=20 Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2011 10:18 AM Subject: [LML] Re: Lancair 360 Inner Doors Ah, but there is a way to stop it. It works, is inexpensive and has = the added benefit of being the closest tolerance hinge tested to date. = This has been discussed previously, but is worth going over again. The key to preventing wear in the standard MS hinge is to distribute = the load across sufficient area of the hinge material. The MS hinge pin = doesn't do this. Its diameter is too small. Here is where the welding = rod comes in. Because of its close tolerance fit, contact stresses are = reduced to an insignificant level. This effectively translates into an = infinite hinge life. I tried this on my plane ~11 years ago and there = is still no sign of play. The point of the original post was in regards to shaking doors and = play in the hinge and rod end bearings. This is where the welding rod = approach is better than anything we have seen to date. It has the least = inherent play. I would caution against using any hinge with nylon = bearing material in this application. In the gear door installation, = the actuator is attached out in front of the hinge. This places a = disproportionate load on the very first hinge element. Nylon is only = good to ~2,000 psi and by its very nature will creep under load. Over = time, this will only add to the play in the hinge and require continuous = readjustment to the doors. Chris Zavatson N91CZ 360std www.N91CZ.net=20 http://n91cz.com/HingePlay/hinges.htm =20 On Mar 4, 2011, at 11:15 AM, "John Barrett" = wrote: Lots of talk about hinges on the gear doors. Consider that aluminum = by its nature wears with time, friction and the elements. Probably no = way to stop it. That means the moment you put that aluminum hinge in = service the fit between the pin and the hinge begins to wear and = gradually become more and more sloppy. Carbinge is designed with a nylon bearing that in our studies = overcomes this quandary. =20 Shameless plug, John Barrett Leading Edge Composites www.carbinge.com From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf = Of Chris Zavatson Sent: Friday, March 04, 2011 6:14 AM To: lml@lancaironline.net Subject: [LML] Re: Lancair 360 Inner Doors Jack, If you extend the hinge line all the way forward to the leading edge = of the door when you change out the hinge, it will stop the premature = wear. The attached photo shows this mod with the original door = installed. It will not stop all the 'shaking in the breeze' as seen in = the video link, but will help save the hinge. The moment arm for the = actuator is still too small for the size of the door. http://www.n91cz.com/Outback-Gear/DoorShake.wmv http://www.n91cz.com/misc/gear_hinge_small.JPG Rod end bearings come in different flavors. This goes for all the = spherical bearings as well, If you upgrade to a better alloy, it will = prevent the play from developing. The load rating will seem excessive, = but you will never have to replace the bearing for the life of the = plane. Tolerances will remain much better. You can download the Aurora = catalog, for example, and see how different series have different load = ratings for the same dimensions. You'll need to go to a bearing place = like Motion Industries to get these. Chris Zavatson N91CZ 360std www.N91CZ.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- From: JON ADDISON To: lml@lancaironline.net Sent: Thu, March 3, 2011 12:37:46 PM Subject: [LML] Lancair 360 Inner Doors Lancair 360 Inner Doors... again... =20 I have the larger inner doors and they vibrtate badly. (Someday = I'll try to get the 3 piece carbon fiber doors) =20 But for now: I'm in the process of changing the worn hindge to an = extruded aluminum hindge with an "over size" 3/32 " (.095 ") stainless = steel welding rod. =20 Plus replacing worn rod-end bearing. (New from Lancair this = morning) =20 Considering remaking the attach channel that connects the rod end = bearing and actuator to the door. ie making it twice as long as the = origional. =20 =20 Wondering if the attach point under the seat needs to be make = tighter with possibly metal sleeves after drilling out the attach = bracket on flloor. =20 Also, considering making a tiny spoiler 1/8 " or so high and temp = mounting on aft / lower edge of door to stabalize it (and probably loose = a knot). =20 Opinions and fixes that worked?? (Except the carbon doors which I = can't afford yet.) =20 And also does anyone know if the inner door actrator can be = rebuilt... both or mine leak a bit. =20 Jack Addison N360JS Sisters, Oregon -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1204 / Virus Database: 1435/3480 - Release Date: = 03/03/11 ------=_NextPart_000_06B7_01CBDBED.302DC870 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
  I'm in the process of installing Carbinges on the MG doors = on a=20 IV-P. The supplied pin had more play than I liked but I was = able to=20 find VAR stainless wire at Small Parts htt= p://www.smallparts.com/stainless-precision-ground-straightened-vacuum-arc= /dp/B003R50276/ref=3Dsr_1_2?sr=3D1-2&qid=3D1299411175 .=20 It's highly polished which helps insertion and should help to = reduce wear.=20 Another option would be straightened music wire, which they also = sell.
 
 I tried a selection of diameters and found that the = 0.083=20 is a good fit. It might be possible to use larger sizes if the = hinges=20 loosen. The wire is bendable and a keeper loop can be formed into = it with=20 some effort. If the hinges should wear out before I do I think it=20 might be possible to remove the nylon inserts and thread new tubing = into=20 the hinge, then use a razor or X-acto to cut excess out of the gaps. The = alternative- removing the the Carbinges- would not be something I'd = enjoy=20 doing.  -Bill Wade
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Chris=20 Zavatson
Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2011 = 10:18=20 AM
Subject: [LML] Re: Lancair 360 = Inner=20 Doors

 
Ah, but there is a way to stop it.  It works, = is inexpensive=20 and has the added benefit of being the closest tolerance hinge tested = to=20 date.  This has been discussed previously, but is worth = going over=20 again.
The key to preventing wear in the standard MS hinge is = to=20 distribute the load across sufficient area of the hinge=20 material.  The MS hinge pin doesn't do this.  Its = diameter=20 is too small.  Here is where the welding rod comes in. =  =20 Because of its close tolerance fit, contact stresses are = reduced to=20 an insignificant level.  This effectively translates = into=20 an infinite hinge life.  I tried=20 this on my plane ~11 years ago and = there is=20 still no sign of play.
The point of the original post was in regards to shaking doors = and play=20 in the hinge and rod end bearings.  This is where the welding rod = approach is better than anything we have seen to date.  It = has the=20 least inherent play.  I would caution against using any hinge = with nylon=20 bearing material in this application.  In the gear=20 door installation, the actuator is attached out in = front=20 of the hinge.  This places a disproportionate load on the = very first=20 hinge element. Nylon is only good to ~2,000 psi and by its very = nature=20 will creep under load.  Over time, this will only add to the play = in=20 the hinge and require continuous readjustment to the doors.
 
Chris Zavatson
N91CZ
360std
http://n91cz.com/HingePlay= /hinges.htm
 

 

On Mar 4, 2011, at 11:15 AM, "John Barrett" <jbarrett@carbinge.com> = wrote:

Lots of=20 talk about hinges on the gear doors.  Consider that aluminum by = its=20 nature wears with time, friction and the elements.  Probably no = way to=20 stop it.  That means the moment you put that aluminum hinge in = service=20 the fit between the pin and the hinge begins to wear and gradually = become=20 more and more sloppy.

 

Carbinge is=20 designed with a nylon bearing that in our studies overcomes this = quandary.=20  

 

Shameless=20 plug,

 

John=20 Barrett

Leading=20 Edge Composites

www.carbinge.com

 

From: Lancair Mailing List = [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net]=20 On Behalf Of Chris Zavatson
Sent: Friday, March 04, = 2011=20 6:14 AM
To: lml@lancaironline.netSubject:=20 [LML] Re: Lancair 360 Inner Doors

 

Jack,

If you extend = the hinge=20 line all the way forward to the leading edge of the door when you = change out=20 the hinge, it will stop the premature wear.  The attached photo = shows=20 this mod with the original door installed.  It will not stop = all the=20 'shaking in the breeze' as seen in the video link, but will help = save the=20 hinge.  The moment arm for the actuator is still too small for = the size=20 of the door.

http://www.n91cz.com/Outback-Gear/DoorShake.wmv

 

http://www.n91cz.com/misc/gear_hinge_small.JPG=

 

Rod end = bearings come in=20 different flavors.  This goes for all the spherical bearings as = well,=20 If you upgrade to a better alloy, it will prevent the play from=20 developing.  The load rating will seem excessive, but you=20 will never have to replace the bearing for the life of the = plane.  Tolerances will remain much better.  You = can=20 download the Aurora catalog, for example, and see how different = series=20 have different load ratings for the same dimensions.  You'll = need to go=20 to a bearing place like Motion Industries to get = these.

 

Chris=20 Zavatson

N91CZ

360std

www.N91CZ.com

 

From: JON ADDISON <jraddison@msn.com>
To:<= /B>=20 lml@lancaironline.netSent:=20 Thu, March 3, 2011 12:37:46 PM
Subject: [LML] Lancair 360 = Inner=20 Doors

Lancair 360 Inner Doors... = again...
 
I have=20 the larger inner doors and they vibrtate badly.  (Someday I'll = try to=20 get the 3 piece carbon fiber doors)
 
But for now:  = I'm in=20 the process of changing the worn hindge to an extruded aluminum = hindge with=20 an "over size" 3/32 " (.095 ") stainless steel welding=20 rod.
 
Plus replacing worn rod-end bearing.  (New = from=20 Lancair this morning)
 
Considering remaking the attach = channel=20 that connects the rod end bearing and actuator to the door.  ie = making=20 it twice as long as the origional. 
 
Wondering if = the=20 attach point under the seat needs to be make tighter with possibly = metal=20 sleeves  after drilling out the attach bracket on=20 flloor.
 
Also, considering making a tiny spoiler 1/8 " = or so=20 high and temp mounting on aft / lower edge of door to stabalize it = (and=20 probably loose a knot).
 
Opinions and fixes that = worked?? =20 (Except the carbon doors which I can't afford yet.)
 
And = also=20 does anyone know if the inner door actrator can be rebuilt... both = or mine=20 leak a bit.
 
Jack Addison
N360JS  Sisters,=20 Oregon

 

No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG = - www.avg.com
Version: 10.0.1204 / Virus = Database:=20 1435/3480 - Release Date:=20 03/03/11


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