X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 05:42:19 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from qmta07.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.64] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.9) with ESMTP id 4468098 for lml@lancaironline.net; Wed, 15 Sep 2010 14:12:45 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=76.96.30.64; envelope-from=j.hafen@comcast.net Received: from omta03.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.27]) by qmta07.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id 700z1f0050b6N64A76CBWE; Wed, 15 Sep 2010 18:12:11 +0000 Received: from [10.0.1.4] ([24.17.111.171]) by omta03.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id 76C91f0043hvfg88P6C9c0; Wed, 15 Sep 2010 18:12:10 +0000 From: John Hafen Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-292--823032474 Subject: Mark -- you should join the Lancair Mail List X-Original-Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 11:12:09 -0700 References: X-Original-To: Mark Patey , Lancair Mailing List X-Original-Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1081) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1081) --Apple-Mail-292--823032474 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mark -- you should sign up and contribute to the Lancair Mail List on a = regular basis. You and your brother Mike are probably the two most = aggressive, experimental pilots I know. Those of us who are a little = more timid in our exploits could learn much from you and Mike as you = stretch the envelope from time to time. Regards, John Hafen (JR) IVP 413AJ >=20 >=20 > From: Colyn Case > Date: September 14, 2010 6:41:59 PM PDT > To: lml@lancaironline.net > Subject: [LML] Re: Fw: Engine Failure ATC transcript Super Legacy Twin = Turbo TSIO 580 > Reply-To: "Lancair Mailing List" > =20 > good post. anyone (Charlie?) have a part number on the "new" hoses? > =20 > Colyn > =20 > On Sep 13, 2010, at 4:43 PM, randy snarr wrote: >=20 >=20 > All, > Mark Patey asked me to post this response to the group as he is a non = subscribed member... >=20 > Randy Snarr > N694RS >=20 > "Flight by machines heavier than air is unpractical and insignificant, = if not utterly impossible" > -Simon Newcomb, 1902 >=20 > --- On Mon, 9/13/10, Mark Patey wrote: >=20 > From: Mark Patey > Subject: Engine Failure ATC transcript Super Legacy Twin Turbo TSIO = 580 > To: randylsnarr@yahoo.com > Cc: "Mark Patey" > Date: Monday, September 13, 2010, 9:19 AM >=20 > Dear Lancair Drivers, > I've never been a part of the LML or the Lancair community = at all, I guess I'm kind of an outsider in that regard, so this will be = my first real contract with everyone on the list. I hope it's as = friendly of a group as it seams to be as I read back on the history. I = don't know proper forum posting or internet chat procedures, so I hope I = don't do or say something tabu. > Some great questions and comments have come up on this = discussion. I'll do my best to add some additional info on my engine = failure. Lynn Farnsworth had a couple good questions I thought I could = address as well as some other questions I've been asked. > 1. Why "big bang" instead of a "poof" like Lynn's plane = at Reno? This one is simple. My aluminum turbo pipe is bent at a 90 = right after the turbo clamp. That 90 is 2 inches away from my engine = mount. When the hose blew off, it hit the engine mount... hard!!! It = actually dented the aluminum pipe. To me it felt like someone hit the = plane with a sledge hammer, the vibration transferred all the way = through the airframe. > 2. Why did it fail when Lynn's plane didn't fail or foul = plugs? This is a multi part answer. First, there is big difference = between going from boost to 26 inches MP like Lynn did, and going from = boost to 14 inch MP like I did. It comes down to fuel-to-air = parts-per-million. If you're fuel-to-air ratio is outside of the = combustion parameters you will go from "bang" in the cylinders to only = "burn". I recently did some experiments at altitude to see if I could = duplicate the results of my emergency. I went to 20,000 feet leveled = off and set mixture and power to high cruse power, 29in 21gph. I then = pulled the turbos off (manual waist-gates), and the engine dropped to = about 13inch MP. It lost a TON of power but it did NOT quit running. = EGT's where all still hot and engine was reasonably smooth. Leaning = engine helped gain a little power but not much. Certainly not an = emergency, it would just scare you good if you weren't expecting it, = some descent would be required, and you would probably fly to the = nearest airport to fix things. I then tried it a little different. I = pushed power up to climb settings, 38inch MP, full rich 44gph. I pulled = the turbos off again and dead engine. All EGT's around 200 and dropping = fast. It was interesting to me that the EGT's where colder then my = CHT's. I instantly pulled mixture to get engine running again and it = was shocking how long it took to fire. Almost like when you over prime = you're engine before starting it and have to pull mixture to cutoff and = crank it for a while before it fires. However, when you do that on the = ground you have LOTS of air in those cylinders, unlike doing it up high. = Even though the RPMs were higher then a starter could ever do, it still = took so much time to fire that I started to wonder if it would fire = again at all. It eventually did, and ran smooth, just little power. = When my engine quit during the emergency I did not instantly pull = mixture, there was at least 30 seconds before I was trying to get the = engine running again. I had to get the situation under control first. = Several things happened all at once when the engine quit. The autopilot = was set to climb at 180KIAS so when the big fan stopped pulling and = started acting like a 4 bladed air-brake, the plane pitched hard forward = and left me floating up against my seatbelt. There is nothing like = watching your cell phone slowly floating up toward the canopy as you = quickly round out a climb into a dive you weren't planning on. The = plane was also trimmed with lots of rudder for a high power climb, so = now the plane was yawing hard to the side leaving me with only one hand = to fly as the other was against the canopy pushing me upright in my = seat. By the time I declared my emergency, trimmed out the plane, = evaluated surrounding airport weather, looked for alternate airports to = the east, and made some tough decisions, the engine was as flooded and = fouled as a plane can get. Lots of "burn" in the cylinders and no = "bang"! It's like when someone taxi's at a high altitude airport with = the mixture full and the plugs foul up on that short trip to the runway, = and that's WITH "bang" in the cylinders. My situation was like that only = minus the bang that keeps plugs clean, and then multiply the fuel flow = by 19 and reduce the air in the cylinders by half. > 3. What might be different between the Continental and = Lycoming in this situation? Well one big thing might be the electric = fuel pumps. On my Cirrus (Turbo Contintinal 550) and on my Continental = powered Legacy (Also turbo), I have a "High Boost/Prime" and "Low = Boost" settings on the pump. High to prime and low for the climb. On = the Lycoming you have one pump setting and it is "High/Prime" and you = leave it on for the climb. So when my failure happened, I was Power = Lever Full, Mixture Full, Boost/Prime pump ON and very little air in the = cylinders. Would a Continental quit at altitude? I don't know; I would = only guess not, unless you had the fuel pump on high/prime but that is = not the normal engine management procedures so I doubt anyone would find = themselves in that situation. My other legacy has automatic waist gates = so I can't take that one to altitude and pull the turbos out to test = that theory. I also don't know if there is any difference between how = the servos meter fuel. It may be that the Continental will just push = the extra fuel back to the wing, the Lycoming can't do that, there is no = fuel return to the wing. > 4. Why didn't you pull the mixture immediately to keep = engine from flooding and fouling? Two reasons. One, I was alway told = when you have an engine failure you first AVIATE - best-glide KIAS, trim = and configure... NAVIGATE - Pick a field and turn toward it... then = INVESTIGATE and COMMUNICATE. Also recognize I had no reason to think = that engine was ever coming back to life. Imagine yourself in the same = spot not knowing what you know now. Loud bang heard and FELT through = the plane, all EGT'S and OIL PRESSURE instantly go into the red and set = off alarms. Unless this has happened before, your first assumption = probably will not be to pull the mixture to within a quarter inch of = full off to get the engine to run. You just might think, like I did, = that something just went through the case. It wasn't until later that = I got a chance to work on getting the engine to run. It was only then = that I realized the oil was only red because it went from 60PSI to = bellow 30PSI (red alarm is at 30PSI and below). When I saw I had 26PSI = on my oil, I thought "well that's a good sign, what else might be the = problem." My next step was to pull mixture until the engine started to = run. Only 3 cylinders would fire. As I continued pulling the mixture = in hopes the others cylinders would fire, I eventually got to the = mixture cut off, and no surprise, the 3 hot cylinders shut off too. So = I pushed it in and set it to the smoothest possible setting, about 1,300 = EGT on the three cylinders. > 5. Why as you got lower didn't you advance the power = beyond 14inch MP? Well as the power increased in only three cylinders = the vibration was frightening. I made one attempt to push the power up = and it started "kicking" I don't really know why the "kick", my only = guess is that one or more of the dead cylinders where somehow trying to = fire as the piston was on the upstroke. I knew I had 700FPM required to = hit my target and I was descending at around 600-650FPM. So if I could = keep the engine from blowing itself apart I would make the field. > 6. How is the turbo system set up? Standard twin turbo = setup other then manual waist-gates (they are coming off, don't like = 'em) The boost lines "Y" together before the servo, the exhaust pipes = are separate, 3 cylinders to each turbo, two waist-gates. > =20 > I'm interested to learn more about the new and improved = hoses and clamps Charlie talked about. I have had the same hoses and = clamps on my other Legacy and after 450 hours now I've never had a = failure, I fly usually between 16,000 and 25,000 feet between 25 and 30 = inch MP and I have never had one blow off, but like most I have heard of = it happening to other pilots on several occasions. My newer Legacy, = N913MP, now has about 200 hours with no failure but the one, and in this = case the clamp simply wasn't tightened, I put the hose and clamp back on = the turbo without having to loosen it . All that being said, if there = is something better, I want it on my planes yesterday. I must admit, I = have never seen anyone use a T-bar clamp on the exhaust side of the = turbo like Charlie mentioned earlier on this discussion email, seems = like everyone uses the standard V-band clamps on the exhaust side. If = there is something better then the T-bar clamps, then Charlie is right = about getting the word out; the engine builder put these hoses and = clamps on and I understand Andy Chioveta did the engine install on this = plane before I purchased the project. If it was the wrong setup you = would think one of those two would have been aware of the problem and = changed them out. Has anyone tried the new "Constant Tension Turbo = Clamps"? I'm told the Road Track race guys push those to 100inch MP = equivalent for entire races without any troubles. Charlie mentioned the = new hoses are red. I looked at my Cirrus and the boost hoses on the = induction are black. So... if anyone has a definitive "best-practices" = I'm all ears and eager to upgrade. > Charlie, I wish you the best of luck selling your IVP, it = is a beautiful plane!!!!!!! It's a tough/sad time to sell. I sold my = last Cirrus when my new Cirrus came in and I took HUGE hit on it! I = kinda wonder if I would have been better off to hold on to it and see if = the market would come back a bit first. Seems like your plane is really = under priced for what it is. The other challenge I had with mine was I = had put just over 800 hours on it in one year and all the other 08's had = around 100-200 hours. I guess lower depreciation with hours is another = nice thing about Experimental aircraft, most people feel better about a = "proven" experimental then they do about a low time one. Seems like I = lost nothing when I sold my RV6, I had 1,200 hours on it and the buyer = LOVED that fact, and said that it made him feel good about the plane. =20= > Anyways. Take care and safe flying to all. > =20 > Tailwinds, > Mark Patey > =20 > =20 > =20 --Apple-Mail-292--823032474 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Mark -- you should sign up and contribute to = the Lancair Mail List on a regular basis.  You and your brother = Mike are probably the two most aggressive, experimental pilots I know. =  Those of us who are a little more timid in our exploits could = learn much from you and Mike as you stretch the envelope from time to = time.

Regards,

John = Hafen (JR)
IVP 413AJ



From: Mark Patey <markpatey@me.com>
Subject: Engine Failure ATC = transcript Super Legacy Twin Turbo TSIO 580
To: randylsnarr@yahoo.com
Cc: "Mark = Patey" <markpatey@me.com>
Date: Monday, = September 13, 2010, 9:19 AM

Dear Lancair = Drivers,
 I've never been a part of the LML or the = Lancair community at all, I guess I'm kind of an outsider in that = regard, so this will be my first real contract with everyone on the = list.  I hope it's as friendly of a group as it seams to be as I = read back on the history.  I don't know proper forum posting or = internet chat procedures, so I hope I don't do or say something = tabu.
 Some great questions and comments have come = up on this discussion.  I'll do my best to add some additional info = on my engine failure.  Lynn Farnsworth had a couple good questions = I thought I could address as well as some other questions I've been = asked.
 1.  Why "big bang" instead of a "poof" = like Lynn's plane at Reno?  This one is simple. My aluminum turbo = pipe is bent at a 90 right after the turbo clamp.  That 90 is 2 = inches away from  =  my engine mount. =  When the hose blew off, it hit the engine mount... hard!!! =  It actually dented the aluminum pipe.  To me it felt like = someone hit the plane with a sledge hammer, the vibration transferred = all the way through the airframe.
 2.  Why did it fail when Lynn's plane = didn't fail or foul plugs?  This is a multi part answer. =  First, there is big difference between going from boost to 26 = inches MP like Lynn did, and going from boost to 14 inch MP like I did. =  It comes down to fuel-to-air parts-per-million.  If you're = fuel-to-air ratio is outside of the combustion parameters you will go = from "bang" in the cylinders to only "burn".  I recently did some = experiments at altitude to see if I could duplicate the results of my = emergency.  I went to 20,000 feet leveled off and set mixture and = power to high cruse power, 29in 21gph.  I then pulled the turbos = off (manual waist-gates), and the engine dropped to about 13inch MP. =  It lost a TON of power but it did NOT quit running.  EGT's = where all still hot and engine was reasonably smooth.  Leaning = engine helped gain a little power but not much.  Certainly not an = emergency, it would just scare you good if you weren't expecting it, = some descent would be required, and you would probably fly to the = nearest airport to fix things.  I then tried it a little different. =  I pushed power up to climb settings, 38inch MP, full rich 44gph. =  I pulled the turbos off again and dead engine.  All EGT's = around 200 and dropping fast. It was interesting to me that the EGT's = where colder then my CHT's.  I instantly pulled mixture to get = engine running again and it was shocking how long it took to fire. =  Almost like when you over prime you're engine before starting it = and have to pull mixture to cutoff and crank it for a while before it = fires. However, when you do that on the ground you have LOTS of air in = those cylinders, unlike doing it up high.  Even though the RPMs = were higher then a starter could ever do, it still took so much time to = fire that I started to wonder if it would fire again at all.  It = eventually did, and ran smooth, just little power.  When my engine = quit during the emergency I did not instantly pull mixture, there was at = least 30 seconds before I was trying to get the engine running again. =  I had to get the situation under control first.  Several = things happened all at once when the engine quit. The autopilot was set = to climb at 180KIAS so when the big fan stopped pulling and started = acting like a 4 bladed air-brake, the plane pitched hard forward and = left me floating up against my seatbelt. There is nothing like watching = your cell phone slowly floating up toward the canopy as you quickly = round out a climb into a dive you weren't planning on.  The plane = was also trimmed with lots of rudder for a high power climb, so now the = plane was yawing hard to the side leaving me with only one hand to fly = as the other was against the canopy pushing me upright in my seat. =  By the time I declared my emergency, trimmed out the plane, = evaluated surrounding airport weather, looked for alternate airports to = the east, and made some tough decisions, the engine was as flooded and = fouled as a plane can get. Lots of "burn" in the cylinders and no = "bang"!  It's like when someone taxi's at a high altitude airport = with the mixture full and the plugs foul up on that short trip to the = runway, and that's WITH "bang" in the cylinders. My situation was like = that only minus the bang that keeps plugs clean, and then multiply the = fuel flow by 19 and reduce the air in the cylinders by = half.
 3.  What might be different between the = Continental and Lycoming in this situation?  Well one big thing = might be the electric fuel pumps.  On my Cirrus (Turbo Contintinal = 550) and on my Continental powered Legacy (Also turbo),  I have a = "High Boost/Prime" and "Low Boost" settings on the pump.  High to = prime and low for the climb.  On the  Lycoming you have one = pump setting and it is "High/Prime" and you leave it on for the climb. =  So when my failure happened, I was Power Lever Full, Mixture Full, = Boost/Prime pump ON and very little air in the cylinders.  Would a = Continental quit at altitude? I don't know;  I would only guess = not, unless you had the fuel pump on high/prime but that is not the = normal engine management procedures so I doubt anyone would find = themselves in that situation.  My other legacy has automatic waist = gates so I can't take that one to altitude and pull the turbos out to = test that theory.  I also don't know if there is any difference = between how the servos meter fuel.  It may be that the Continental = will just push the extra fuel back to the wing, the Lycoming can't do = that, there is no fuel return to the = wing.
 4.  Why didn't you pull the mixture = immediately to keep engine from flooding and fouling?  Two reasons. = One, I was alway told when you have an engine failure you first AVIATE - = best-glide KIAS, trim and configure... NAVIGATE - Pick a field and turn = toward it... then INVESTIGATE and COMMUNICATE.  Also = recognize I had no reason to think that engine was ever coming back = to life.  Imagine yourself in the same spot not knowing what you = know now.  Loud bang heard and FELT through the plane, all EGT'S = and OIL PRESSURE instantly go into the red and set off alarms. =  Unless this has happened before, your first assumption probably = will not be to pull the mixture to within a quarter inch of full off to = get the engine to run.  You just might think, like I did, that = something just went through the case.  It wasn't until  later = that I got a chance to work on getting the engine to run.  It was = only then that I realized the oil was only red because it went from = 60PSI to bellow 30PSI (red alarm is at 30PSI and below).  When I = saw I had 26PSI on my oil, I thought "well that's a good sign, what else = might be the problem."  My next step was to pull mixture until the = engine started to run.  Only 3 cylinders would fire.  As I = continued pulling the mixture in hopes the others cylinders would fire, = I eventually got to the mixture cut off, and no surprise, the 3 hot = cylinders shut off too.  So I pushed it in and set it to the = smoothest possible setting, about 1,300 EGT on the three = cylinders.
 5.  Why as you got lower didn't you = advance the power beyond 14inch MP?  Well as the power increased in = only three cylinders the vibration was frightening.  I made one = attempt to push the power up and it started "kicking"  I don't = really know why the "kick", my only guess is that one or more of the = dead cylinders where somehow trying to fire as the piston was on the = upstroke. I knew I had 700FPM required to hit my target and I was = descending at around 600-650FPM.  So if I could keep the engine = from blowing itself apart I would make the = field.
 6.  How is the turbo system set up? =  Standard twin turbo setup other then manual waist-gates (they are = coming off, don't like 'em) The boost lines "Y" together before the = servo, the exhaust pipes are separate, 3 cylinders to each turbo, two = waist-gates.
 I'm interested to learn more about the new = and improved hoses and clamps Charlie talked about.  I have had the = same hoses and clamps on my other Legacy and after 450 hours now I've = never had a failure, I fly usually between 16,000 and 25,000 feet = between 25 and 30 inch MP and I have never had one blow off, but like = most I have heard of it happening to other pilots on several occasions. =  My newer Legacy, N913MP, now has about 200 hours with no failure = but the one, and in this case the clamp simply wasn't tightened, I put = the hose and clamp back on the turbo without having to loosen it . =  All that being said, if there is something better, I want it on my = planes yesterday.  I must admit, I have never seen anyone use a = T-bar clamp on the exhaust side of the turbo like Charlie mentioned = earlier on this discussion email, seems like = everyone uses the standard V-band clamps on the exhaust side.  If = there is something better then the T-bar clamps, then Charlie is right = about getting the word out; the engine builder put these hoses and = clamps on and I understand Andy Chioveta did the engine install on this = plane before I purchased the project.  If it was the wrong setup = you would think one of those two would have been aware of the problem = and changed them out.  Has anyone tried the new "Constant Tension = Turbo Clamps"?  I'm told the Road Track race guys push those to = 100inch MP equivalent for entire races without any troubles. =  Charlie mentioned the new hoses are red.  I looked at my = Cirrus and the boost hoses on the induction are black.  So... if = anyone has a definitive "best-practices" I'm all ears and eager to = upgrade.
 Charlie, I wish you the best of luck selling = your IVP, it is a beautiful plane!!!!!!!    It's a tough/sad = time to sell.  I sold my last Cirrus when my new Cirrus came in and = I took HUGE hit on it!  I kinda wonder if I would have been better = off to hold on to it and see if the market would come back a bit first. = Seems like your plane is really under priced for what it is.  The = other challenge I had with mine was I had put just over 800 hours on it = in one year and all the other 08's had around 100-200 hours.  I = guess lower depreciation with hours is another nice thing about = Experimental aircraft, most people feel better about a "proven" = experimental then they do about a low time one.  Seems like I lost = nothing when I sold my RV6, I had 1,200 hours on it and the buyer LOVED = that fact, and said that it made him feel good about the plane. =  
 Anyways. Take care and safe flying to = all.
 
Mark = Patey