X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 21:41:59 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([209.86.89.69] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.9) with ESMTP id 4465752 for lml@lancaironline.net; Mon, 13 Sep 2010 22:46:02 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.86.89.69; envelope-from=colyncase@earthlink.net DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=qbPv4RVk1HF1pzIV20E2wDY2NH83vKXICcQ5KDzZksEpkZfa7rwQLdzqkhPCkvFM; h=Received:From:Mime-Version:Content-Type:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:To:References:Message-Id:X-Mailer:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [216.57.118.85] (helo=[192.168.1.100]) by elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1OvLWR-0005Kp-60 for lml@lancaironline.net; Mon, 13 Sep 2010 22:45:27 -0400 From: Colyn Case Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1081) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-43--965036018 Subject: Re: [LML] Fw: Engine Failure ATC transcript Super Legacy Twin Turbo TSIO 580 X-Original-Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 22:45:25 -0400 In-Reply-To: X-Original-To: "Lancair Mailing List" References: X-Original-Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1081) X-ELNK-Trace: 63d5d3452847f8b1d6dd28457998182d7e972de0d01da9400a123498f4c6cc21881a79cf510fed56350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 216.57.118.85 --Apple-Mail-43--965036018 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii good post. anyone (Charlie?) have a part number on the "new" hoses? Colyn On Sep 13, 2010, at 4:43 PM, randy snarr wrote: > All, > Mark Patey asked me to post this response to the group as he is a non = subscribed member... >=20 > Randy Snarr > N694RS >=20 > "Flight by machines heavier than air is unpractical and insignificant, = if not utterly impossible" > -Simon Newcomb, 1902 >=20 > --- On Mon, 9/13/10, Mark Patey wrote: >=20 > From: Mark Patey > Subject: Engine Failure ATC transcript Super Legacy Twin Turbo TSIO = 580 > To: randylsnarr@yahoo.com > Cc: "Mark Patey" > Date: Monday, September 13, 2010, 9:19 AM >=20 > Dear Lancair Drivers, > I've never been a part of the LML or the Lancair community at = all, I guess I'm kind of an outsider in that regard, so this will be my = first real contract with everyone on the list. I hope it's as friendly = of a group as it seams to be as I read back on the history. I don't = know proper forum posting or internet chat procedures, so I hope I don't = do or say something tabu. > Some great questions and comments have come up on this = discussion. I'll do my best to add some additional info on my engine = failure. Lynn Farnsworth had a couple good questions I thought I could = address as well as some other questions I've been asked. > 1. Why "big bang" instead of a "poof" like Lynn's plane at = Reno? This one is simple. My aluminum turbo pipe is bent at a 90 right = after the turbo clamp. That 90 is 2 inches away from my engine mount. = When the hose blew off, it hit the engine mount... hard!!! It actually = dented the aluminum pipe. To me it felt like someone hit the plane with = a sledge hammer, the vibration transferred all the way through the = airframe. > 2. Why did it fail when Lynn's plane didn't fail or foul plugs? = This is a multi part answer. First, there is big difference between = going from boost to 26 inches MP like Lynn did, and going from boost to = 14 inch MP like I did. It comes down to fuel-to-air parts-per-million. = If you're fuel-to-air ratio is outside of the combustion parameters you = will go from "bang" in the cylinders to only "burn". I recently did = some experiments at altitude to see if I could duplicate the results of = my emergency. I went to 20,000 feet leveled off and set mixture and = power to high cruse power, 29in 21gph. I then pulled the turbos off = (manual waist-gates), and the engine dropped to about 13inch MP. It = lost a TON of power but it did NOT quit running. EGT's where all still = hot and engine was reasonably smooth. Leaning engine helped gain a = little power but not much. Certainly not an emergency, it would just = scare you good if you weren't expecting it, some descent would be = required, and you would probably fly to the nearest airport to fix = things. I then tried it a little different. I pushed power up to climb = settings, 38inch MP, full rich 44gph. I pulled the turbos off again and = dead engine. All EGT's around 200 and dropping fast. It was interesting = to me that the EGT's where colder then my CHT's. I instantly pulled = mixture to get engine running again and it was shocking how long it took = to fire. Almost like when you over prime you're engine before starting = it and have to pull mixture to cutoff and crank it for a while before it = fires. However, when you do that on the ground you have LOTS of air in = those cylinders, unlike doing it up high. Even though the RPMs were = higher then a starter could ever do, it still took so much time to fire = that I started to wonder if it would fire again at all. It eventually = did, and ran smooth, just little power. When my engine quit during the = emergency I did not instantly pull mixture, there was at least 30 = seconds before I was trying to get the engine running again. I had to = get the situation under control first. Several things happened all at = once when the engine quit. The autopilot was set to climb at 180KIAS so = when the big fan stopped pulling and started acting like a 4 bladed = air-brake, the plane pitched hard forward and left me floating up = against my seatbelt. There is nothing like watching your cell phone = slowly floating up toward the canopy as you quickly round out a climb = into a dive you weren't planning on. The plane was also trimmed with = lots of rudder for a high power climb, so now the plane was yawing hard = to the side leaving me with only one hand to fly as the other was = against the canopy pushing me upright in my seat. By the time I = declared my emergency, trimmed out the plane, evaluated surrounding = airport weather, looked for alternate airports to the east, and made = some tough decisions, the engine was as flooded and fouled as a plane = can get. Lots of "burn" in the cylinders and no "bang"! It's like when = someone taxi's at a high altitude airport with the mixture full and the = plugs foul up on that short trip to the runway, and that's WITH "bang" = in the cylinders. My situation was like that only minus the bang that = keeps plugs clean, and then multiply the fuel flow by 19 and reduce the = air in the cylinders by half. > 3. What might be different between the Continental and Lycoming = in this situation? Well one big thing might be the electric fuel pumps. = On my Cirrus (Turbo Contintinal 550) and on my Continental powered = Legacy (Also turbo), I have a "High Boost/Prime" and "Low Boost" = settings on the pump. High to prime and low for the climb. On the = Lycoming you have one pump setting and it is "High/Prime" and you leave = it on for the climb. So when my failure happened, I was Power Lever = Full, Mixture Full, Boost/Prime pump ON and very little air in the = cylinders. Would a Continental quit at altitude? I don't know; I would = only guess not, unless you had the fuel pump on high/prime but that is = not the normal engine management procedures so I doubt anyone would find = themselves in that situation. My other legacy has automatic waist gates = so I can't take that one to altitude and pull the turbos out to test = that theory. I also don't know if there is any difference between how = the servos meter fuel. It may be that the Continental will just push = the extra fuel back to the wing, the Lycoming can't do that, there is no = fuel return to the wing. > 4. Why didn't you pull the mixture immediately to keep engine = from flooding and fouling? Two reasons. One, I was alway told when you = have an engine failure you first AVIATE - best-glide KIAS, trim and = configure... NAVIGATE - Pick a field and turn toward it... then = INVESTIGATE and COMMUNICATE. Also recognize I had no reason to think = that engine was ever coming back to life. Imagine yourself in the same = spot not knowing what you know now. Loud bang heard and FELT through = the plane, all EGT'S and OIL PRESSURE instantly go into the red and set = off alarms. Unless this has happened before, your first assumption = probably will not be to pull the mixture to within a quarter inch of = full off to get the engine to run. You just might think, like I did, = that something just went through the case. It wasn't until later that = I got a chance to work on getting the engine to run. It was only then = that I realized the oil was only red because it went from 60PSI to = bellow 30PSI (red alarm is at 30PSI and below). When I saw I had 26PSI = on my oil, I thought "well that's a good sign, what else might be the = problem." My next step was to pull mixture until the engine started to = run. Only 3 cylinders would fire. As I continued pulling the mixture = in hopes the others cylinders would fire, I eventually got to the = mixture cut off, and no surprise, the 3 hot cylinders shut off too. So = I pushed it in and set it to the smoothest possible setting, about 1,300 = EGT on the three cylinders. > 5. Why as you got lower didn't you advance the power beyond = 14inch MP? Well as the power increased in only three cylinders the = vibration was frightening. I made one attempt to push the power up and = it started "kicking" I don't really know why the "kick", my only guess = is that one or more of the dead cylinders where somehow trying to fire = as the piston was on the upstroke. I knew I had 700FPM required to hit = my target and I was descending at around 600-650FPM. So if I could keep = the engine from blowing itself apart I would make the field. > 6. How is the turbo system set up? Standard twin turbo setup = other then manual waist-gates (they are coming off, don't like 'em) The = boost lines "Y" together before the servo, the exhaust pipes are = separate, 3 cylinders to each turbo, two waist-gates. > =09 > I'm interested to learn more about the new and improved hoses = and clamps Charlie talked about. I have had the same hoses and clamps = on my other Legacy and after 450 hours now I've never had a failure, I = fly usually between 16,000 and 25,000 feet between 25 and 30 inch MP and = I have never had one blow off, but like most I have heard of it = happening to other pilots on several occasions. My newer Legacy, = N913MP, now has about 200 hours with no failure but the one, and in this = case the clamp simply wasn't tightened, I put the hose and clamp back on = the turbo without having to loosen it . All that being said, if there = is something better, I want it on my planes yesterday. I must admit, I = have never seen anyone use a T-bar clamp on the exhaust side of the = turbo like Charlie mentioned earlier on this discussion email, seems = like everyone uses the standard V-band clamps on the exhaust side. If = there is something better then the T-bar clamps, then Charlie is right = about getting the word out; the engine builder put these hoses and = clamps on and I understand Andy Chioveta did the engine install on this = plane before I purchased the project. If it was the wrong setup you = would think one of those two would have been aware of the problem and = changed them out. Has anyone tried the new "Constant Tension Turbo = Clamps"? I'm told the Road Track race guys push those to 100inch MP = equivalent for entire races without any troubles. Charlie mentioned the = new hoses are red. I looked at my Cirrus and the boost hoses on the = induction are black. So... if anyone has a definitive "best-practices" = I'm all ears and eager to upgrade. > Charlie, I wish you the best of luck selling your IVP, it is a = beautiful plane!!!!!!! It's a tough/sad time to sell. I sold my last = Cirrus when my new Cirrus came in and I took HUGE hit on it! I kinda = wonder if I would have been better off to hold on to it and see if the = market would come back a bit first. Seems like your plane is really = under priced for what it is. The other challenge I had with mine was I = had put just over 800 hours on it in one year and all the other 08's had = around 100-200 hours. I guess lower depreciation with hours is another = nice thing about Experimental aircraft, most people feel better about a = "proven" experimental then they do about a low time one. Seems like I = lost nothing when I sold my RV6, I had 1,200 hours on it and the buyer = LOVED that fact, and said that it made him feel good about the plane. =20= > Anyways. Take care and safe flying to all. >=20 > Tailwinds, > Mark Patey >=20 --Apple-Mail-43--965036018 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii good = post.   anyone (Charlie?) have a part number on the "new" = hoses?

Colyn

On Sep 13, 2010, = at 4:43 PM, randy snarr wrote:

All,
Mark Patey asked me to = post this response to the group as he is a non subscribed = member...

Randy Snarr
N694RS

"Flight by machines = heavier than air is unpractical and insignificant, if not utterly = impossible"
-Simon Newcomb, 1902

--- On Mon, 9/13/10, Mark Patey <markpatey@me.com> = wrote:

From: Mark Patey <markpatey@me.com>
Subject: = Engine Failure ATC transcript Super Legacy Twin Turbo TSIO 580
To: randylsnarr@yahoo.com
Cc: = "Mark Patey" <markpatey@me.com>
Date: = Monday, September 13, 2010, 9:19 AM

Dear = Lancair Drivers,
I've never been a part of the LML = or the Lancair community at all, I guess I'm kind of an outsider in that = regard, so this will be my first real contract with everyone on the = list.  I hope it's as friendly of a group as it seams to be as I = read back on the history.  I don't know proper forum posting or internet chat = procedures, so I hope I don't do or say something tabu.
Some great questions and comments = have come up on this discussion.  I'll do my best to add some = additional info on my engine failure.  Lynn Farnsworth had a couple = good questions I thought I could address as well as some other questions = I've been asked.
= 1.  Why "big bang" instead of a "poof" like Lynn's plane at = Reno?  This one is simple. My aluminum turbo pipe is bent at a 90 = right after the turbo clamp.  That 90 is 2 inches away from my = engine mount.  When the hose blew off, it hit the engine mount... = hard!!!  It actually dented the aluminum pipe.  To me it felt = like someone hit the plane with a sledge hammer, the vibration transferred = all the way through the airframe.
2.  Why did it fail when Lynn's plane didn't fail or = foul plugs?  This is a multi part answer.  First, there is big = difference between going from boost to 26 inches MP like Lynn did, and = going from boost to 14 inch MP like I did.  It comes down to = fuel-to-air parts-per-million.  If you're fuel-to-air ratio is = outside of the combustion parameters you will go from "bang" in the = cylinders to only "burn".  I recently did some experiments at = altitude to see if I could duplicate the results of my emergency. =  I went to 20,000 feet leveled off and set mixture and power to = high cruse power, 29in 21gph.  I then pulled the turbos off (manual = waist-gates), and the engine dropped to about 13inch MP.  It lost a TON of power but it did NOT quit running.  EGT's where all still = hot and engine was reasonably smooth.  Leaning engine helped gain a = little power but not much.  Certainly not an emergency, it would = just scare you good if you weren't expecting it, some descent would be = required, and you would probably fly to the nearest airport to fix = things.  I then tried it a little different.  I pushed power = up to climb settings, 38inch MP, full rich 44gph.  I pulled the = turbos off again and dead engine.  All EGT's around 200 and = dropping fast. It was interesting to me that the EGT's where colder then = my CHT's.  I instantly pulled mixture to get engine running again = and it was shocking how long it took to fire.  Almost like when you = over prime you're engine before starting it and have to pull mixture to = cutoff and crank it for a while before it fires. However, when you do = that on the ground you have LOTS of air in those cylinders, unlike doing it up high.  Even though the RPMs were = higher then a starter could ever do, it still took so much time to fire = that I started to wonder if it would fire again at all.  It = eventually did, and ran smooth, just little power.  When my engine = quit during the emergency I did not instantly pull mixture, there was at = least 30 seconds before I was trying to get the engine running again. =  I had to get the situation under control first.  Several = things happened all at once when the engine quit. The autopilot was set = to climb at 180KIAS so when the big fan stopped pulling and started = acting like a 4 bladed air-brake, the plane pitched hard forward and = left me floating up against my seatbelt. There is nothing like watching = your cell phone slowly floating up toward the canopy as you quickly = round out a climb into a dive you weren't planning on.  The plane = was also trimmed with lots of rudder for a high power climb, so now the plane was yawing hard to the side leaving me with = only one hand to fly as the other was against the canopy pushing me = upright in my seat.  By the time I declared my emergency, trimmed = out the plane, evaluated surrounding airport weather, looked for = alternate airports to the east, and made some tough decisions, the = engine was as flooded and fouled as a plane can get. Lots of "burn" in = the cylinders and no "bang"!  It's like when someone taxi's at a = high altitude airport with the mixture full and the plugs foul up on = that short trip to the runway, and that's WITH "bang" in the cylinders. = My situation was like that only minus the bang that keeps plugs clean, = and then multiply the fuel flow by 19 and reduce the air in the = cylinders by half.
= 3.  What might be different between the Continental and = Lycoming in this situation?  Well one big thing might be the electric fuel pumps. =  On my Cirrus (Turbo Contintinal 550) and on my Continental powered = Legacy (Also turbo),  I have a "High Boost/Prime" and "Low Boost" = settings on the pump.  High to prime and low for the climb. =  On the  Lycoming you have one pump setting and it is = "High/Prime" and you leave it on for the climb.  So when my failure = happened, I was Power Lever Full, Mixture Full, Boost/Prime pump ON and = very little air in the cylinders.  Would a Continental quit at = altitude? I don't know;  I would only guess not, unless you had the = fuel pump on high/prime but that is not the normal engine management = procedures so I doubt anyone would find themselves in that situation. =  My other legacy has automatic waist gates so I can't take that one = to altitude and pull the turbos out to test that theory.  I also = don't know if there is any difference between how the servos meter fuel.  It may be that the Continental will just push = the extra fuel back to the wing, the Lycoming can't do that, there is no = fuel return to the wing.
= 4.  Why didn't you pull the mixture immediately to keep = engine from flooding and fouling?  Two reasons. One, I was alway = told when you have an engine failure you first AVIATE - best-glide KIAS, = trim and configure... NAVIGATE - Pick a field and turn toward it... then = INVESTIGATE and COMMUNICATE.  Also recognize I had no reason = to think that engine was ever coming back to life.  Imagine = yourself in the same spot not knowing what you know now.  Loud bang = heard and FELT through the plane, all EGT'S and OIL PRESSURE instantly = go into the red and set off alarms.  Unless this has happened = before, your first assumption probably will not be to pull the mixture to within a quarter inch of full off to get the engine to run. =  You just might think, like I did, that something just went through = the case.  It wasn't until  later that I got a chance to work = on getting the engine to run.  It was only then that I realized the = oil was only red because it went from 60PSI to bellow 30PSI (red alarm = is at 30PSI and below).  When I saw I had 26PSI on my oil, I = thought "well that's a good sign, what else might be the problem." =  My next step was to pull mixture until the engine started to run. =  Only 3 cylinders would fire.  As I continued pulling the = mixture in hopes the others cylinders would fire, I eventually got to = the mixture cut off, and no surprise, the 3 hot cylinders shut off too. =  So I pushed it in and set it to the smoothest possible setting, = about 1,300 EGT on the three cylinders.
5.  Why as you got lower didn't you advance the = power beyond 14inch MP?  Well as the power increased in only three = cylinders the vibration was frightening.  I made one attempt to = push the power up and it started "kicking"  I don't really know why = the "kick", my only guess is that one or more of the dead cylinders = where somehow trying to fire as the piston was on the upstroke. I knew I = had 700FPM required to hit my target and I was descending at around = 600-650FPM.  So if I could keep the engine from blowing itself = apart I would make the field.
= 6.  How is the turbo system set up?  Standard twin = turbo setup other then manual waist-gates (they are coming off, don't = like 'em) The boost lines "Y" together before the servo, the exhaust = pipes are separate, 3 cylinders to each turbo, two waist-gates.
=
I'm interested to learn more = about the new and improved hoses and clamps Charlie talked about. =  I have had the same hoses and clamps on my other Legacy and after = 450 hours now I've never had a failure, I fly usually between 16,000 and = 25,000 feet between 25 and 30 inch MP and I have never had one blow off, = but like most I have heard of it happening to other pilots on several = occasions.  My newer Legacy, N913MP, now has about 200 hours with = no failure but the one, and in this case the clamp simply wasn't = tightened, I put the hose and clamp back on the turbo without having to = loosen it .  All that being said, if there is something better, I want it on my planes yesterday.  I must admit, I have = never seen anyone use a T-bar clamp on the exhaust side of the turbo = like Charlie mentioned earlier on this discussion email, seems like everyone uses the standard = V-band clamps on the exhaust side.  If there is something better = then the T-bar clamps, then Charlie is right about getting the word out; = the engine builder put these hoses and clamps on and I understand Andy = Chioveta did the engine install on this plane before I purchased the = project.  If it was the wrong setup you would think one of those = two would have been aware of the problem and changed them out.  Has = anyone tried the new "Constant Tension Turbo Clamps"?  I'm told the = Road Track race guys push those to 100inch MP equivalent for entire = races without any troubles.  Charlie mentioned the new hoses are = red.  I looked at my Cirrus and the boost hoses on the induction are black. =  So... if anyone has a definitive "best-practices" I'm all ears and = eager to upgrade.
= Charlie, I wish you the best of luck selling your IVP, it is a = beautiful plane!!!!!!!    It's a tough/sad time to sell. =  I sold my last Cirrus when my new Cirrus came in and I took HUGE = hit on it!  I kinda wonder if I would have been better off to hold = on to it and see if the market would come back a bit first. Seems like = your plane is really under priced for what it is.  The other = challenge I had with mine was I had put just over 800 hours on it in one = year and all the other 08's had around 100-200 hours.  I guess = lower depreciation with hours is another nice thing about Experimental = aircraft, most people feel better about a "proven" experimental then = they do about a low time one.  Seems like I lost nothing when I sold my RV6, I = had 1,200 hours on it and the buyer LOVED that fact, and said that it = made him feel good about the plane.  
Anyways. Take care and safe flying to all.

Tailwinds,
Mark = Patey


= --Apple-Mail-43--965036018--