X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 16:43:05 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from web111413.mail.gq1.yahoo.com ([67.195.15.204] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.9) with SMTP id 4465428 for lml@lancaironline.net; Mon, 13 Sep 2010 16:31:49 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=67.195.15.204; envelope-from=randylsnarr@yahoo.com Received: (qmail 22088 invoked by uid 60001); 13 Sep 2010 20:31:14 -0000 DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=psQWapJK9APXpmLEaRwwJ11GpgDSCA3A/Y1IHjURavWGuU03E9GIgkbI/kedZ5tMgtXZpq9wYvlJyzrq0KfLvshIWhW16KE0+ToYS7KRN/65WOYZKMT60c2erFW/mihpA0UX1I/y+Tcv5or2lOxzB4pz4wuopeNW2sM0LzdB98k=; X-Original-Message-ID: <398467.20451.qm@web111413.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: 17xZECUVM1n1DoTO.ix9E7MQX7nFL6TsfF9lueOQ6zbbKMr wk3ewlmZ3AfoFpY_6ZHwJzURiXCbpYo3gy6DGaEmUN0vr9nOlBVG.ZeZgjgZ zlOe2oxY9m9qfCneR6YCzRFD83iveP9FtsYSqtdIMs4wGshEvFZ_luV4x7ee sbw2CihEp9nZL4csDIbsBhHx9.uqveSzDDsR8QX4c4TGZ.VwK8MSZaR0GDh. Ia4QHPA9IYBYz03YXK8faBdk_GQ.qOxNI1HYvxXVTBKrt5tnkHqiMTjO2ZSt hXrl2ucHJwjyUZo2UZsXAGbeLLLGbwHJXWyTX.ZaljeonzbeaUC2O6KNd5o0 ly9qAx927PfU6T64PuZRbkPs- Received: from [69.169.190.15] by web111413.mail.gq1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 13 Sep 2010 13:31:13 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailClassic/11.4.7 YahooMailWebService/0.8.105.279950 X-Original-Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 13:31:13 -0700 (PDT) From: randy snarr Subject: Fw: Engine Failure ATC transcript Super Legacy Twin Turbo TSIO 580 X-Original-To: LML MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1276958738-1284409873=:20451" --0-1276958738-1284409873=:20451 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable All, Mark Patey asked me to post this response to the group as he is a non subsc= ribed member... Randy Snarr N694RS "Flight by machines heavier than air is unpractical and insignificant, if n= ot utterly impossible" =0A-Simon Newcomb, 1902 --- On Mon, 9/13/10, Mark Patey wrote: From: Mark Patey Subject: Engine Failure ATC transcript Super Legacy Twin Turbo TSIO 580 To: randylsnarr@yahoo.com Cc: "Mark Patey" Date: Monday, September 13, 2010, 9:19 AM Dear Lancair Drivers, =09I've never been a part of the LML or the Lancair community at all, I gue= ss I'm kind of an outsider in that regard, so this will be my first real co= ntract with everyone on the list. =A0I hope it's as friendly of a group as = it seams to be as I read back on the history. =A0I don't know proper forum = posting or internet chat procedures, so I hope I don't do or say something = tabu.=09Some great questions and comments have come up on this discussion. = =A0I'll do my best to add some additional info on my engine failure. =A0Lyn= n Farnsworth had a couple good questions I thought I could address as well = as some other questions I've been asked.=091. =A0Why "big bang" instead of = a "poof" like Lynn's plane at Reno? =A0This one is simple. My aluminum turb= o pipe is bent at a 90 right after the turbo clamp. =A0That 90 is 2 inches = away from my engine mount. =A0When the hose blew off, it hit the engine mou= nt... hard!!! =A0It actually dented the aluminum pipe. =A0To me it felt lik= e someone hit the plane with a sledge hammer, the vibration transferred all the way = through the airframe.=092. =A0Why did it fail when Lynn's plane didn't fail= or foul plugs? =A0This is a multi part answer. =A0First, there is big diff= erence between going from boost to 26 inches MP like Lynn did, and going fr= om boost to 14 inch MP like I did. =A0It comes down to fuel-to-air parts-pe= r-million. =A0If you're fuel-to-air ratio is outside of the combustion para= meters you will go from "bang" in the cylinders to only "burn". =A0I recent= ly did some experiments at altitude to see if I could duplicate the results= of my emergency. =A0I went to 20,000 feet leveled off and set mixture and = power to high cruse power, 29in 21gph. =A0I then pulled the turbos off (man= ual waist-gates), and the engine dropped to about 13inch MP. =A0It lost a T= ON of power but it did NOT quit running. =A0EGT's where all still hot and e= ngine was reasonably smooth. =A0Leaning engine helped gain a little power b= ut not much. =A0Certainly not an emergency, it would just scare you good if you w= eren't expecting it, some descent would be required, and you would probably= fly to the nearest airport to fix things. =A0I then tried it a little diff= erent. =A0I pushed power up to climb settings, 38inch MP, full rich 44gph. = =A0I pulled the turbos off again and dead engine. =A0All EGT's around 200 a= nd dropping fast. It was interesting to me that the EGT's where colder then= my CHT's. =A0I instantly pulled mixture to get engine running again and it= was shocking how long it took to fire. =A0Almost like when you over prime = you're engine before starting it and have to pull mixture to cutoff and cra= nk it for a while before it fires. However, when you do that on the ground = you have LOTS of air in those cylinders, unlike doing it up high. =A0Even t= hough the RPMs were higher then a starter could ever do, it still took so m= uch time to fire that I started to wonder if it would fire again at all. =A0It eventually did, and ran smooth, just little power. =A0When my engine= quit during the emergency I did not instantly pull mixture, there was at l= east 30 seconds before I was trying to get the engine running again. =A0I h= ad to get the situation under control first. =A0Several things happened all= at once when the engine quit. The autopilot was set to climb at 180KIAS so= when the big fan stopped pulling and started acting like a 4 bladed air-br= ake, the plane pitched hard forward and left me floating up against my seat= belt. There is nothing like watching your cell phone slowly floating up tow= ard the canopy as you quickly round out a climb into a dive you weren't pla= nning on. =A0The plane was also trimmed with lots of rudder for a high powe= r climb, so now the plane was yawing hard to the side leaving me with only = one hand to fly as the other was against the canopy pushing me upright in m= y seat. =A0By the time I declared my emergency, trimmed out the plane, evaluated surrounding airport weather, looked for alternate airports to th= e east, and made some tough decisions, the engine was as flooded and fouled= as a plane can get. Lots of "burn" in the cylinders and no "bang"! =A0It's= like when someone taxi's at a high altitude airport with the mixture full = and the plugs foul up on that short trip to the runway, and that's WITH "ba= ng" in the cylinders. My situation was like that only minus the bang that k= eeps plugs clean, and then multiply the fuel flow by 19 and reduce the air = in the cylinders by half.=093. =A0What might be different between the Conti= nental and Lycoming in this situation? =A0Well one big thing might be the e= lectric fuel pumps. =A0On my Cirrus (Turbo Contintinal 550) and on my Conti= nental powered Legacy (Also turbo), =A0I have a "High Boost/Prime" and "Low= Boost" settings on the pump. =A0High to prime and low for the climb. =A0On= the =A0Lycoming you have one pump setting and it is "High/Prime" and you leave it on for the climb. =A0So when my failure happened, I was Power Lev= er Full, Mixture Full, Boost/Prime pump ON and very little air in the cylin= ders. =A0Would a Continental quit at altitude? I don't know; =A0I would onl= y guess not, unless you had the fuel pump on high/prime but that is not the= normal engine management procedures so I doubt anyone would find themselve= s in that situation. =A0My other legacy has automatic waist gates so I can'= t take that one to altitude and pull the turbos out to test that theory. = =A0I also don't know if there is any difference between how the servos mete= r fuel. =A0It may be that the Continental will just push the extra fuel bac= k to the wing, the Lycoming can't do that, there is no fuel return to the w= ing.=094. =A0Why didn't you pull the mixture immediately to keep engine fro= m flooding and fouling? =A0Two reasons. One, I was alway told when you have= an engine failure you first AVIATE - best-glide KIAS, trim and configure..= . NAVIGATE - Pick a field and turn toward it... then INVESTIGATE and COMMUNI= CATE. =A0Also recognize=A0I had no reason to think that engine was ever com= ing back to life. =A0Imagine yourself in the same spot not knowing what you= know now. =A0Loud bang heard and FELT through the plane, all EGT'S and OIL= PRESSURE instantly go into the red and set off alarms. =A0Unless this has = happened before, your first assumption probably will not be to pull the mix= ture to within a quarter inch of full off to get the engine to run. =A0You = just might think, like I did, that something just went through the case. = =A0It wasn't until =A0later that I got a chance to work on getting the engi= ne to run. =A0It was only then that I realized the oil was only red because= it went from 60PSI to bellow 30PSI (red alarm is at 30PSI and below). =A0W= hen I saw I had 26PSI on my oil, I thought "well that's a good sign, what e= lse might be the problem." =A0My next step was to pull mixture until the en= gine started to run. =A0Only 3 cylinders would fire. =A0As I continued pulling = the mixture in hopes the others cylinders would fire, I eventually got to t= he mixture cut off, and no surprise, the 3 hot cylinders shut off too. =A0S= o I pushed it in and set it to the smoothest possible setting, about 1,300 = EGT on the three cylinders.=095. =A0Why as you got lower didn't you advance= the power beyond 14inch MP? =A0Well as the power increased in only three c= ylinders the vibration was frightening. =A0I made one attempt to push the p= ower up and it started "kicking" =A0I don't really know why the "kick", my = only guess is that one or more of the dead cylinders where somehow trying t= o fire as the piston was on the upstroke. I knew I had 700FPM required to h= it my target and I was descending at around 600-650FPM. =A0So if I could ke= ep the engine from blowing itself apart I would make the field.=096. =A0How= is the turbo system set up? =A0Standard twin turbo setup other then manual waist-gates (they are coming off, don't like 'em) The boost lines "Y" toge= ther before the servo, the exhaust pipes are separate, 3 cylinders to each = turbo, two waist-gates.=09=09I'm interested to learn more about the new and= improved hoses and clamps Charlie talked about. =A0I have had the same hos= es and clamps on my other Legacy and after 450 hours now I've never had a f= ailure, I fly usually between 16,000 and 25,000 feet between 25 and 30 inch= MP and I have never had one blow off, but like most I have heard of it hap= pening to other pilots on several occasions. =A0My newer Legacy, N913MP, no= w has about 200 hours with no failure but the one, and in this case the cla= mp simply wasn't tightened, I put the hose and clamp back on the turbo with= out having to loosen it . =A0All that being said, if there is something bet= ter, I want it on my planes yesterday. =A0I must admit, I have never seen a= nyone use a T-bar clamp on the exhaust side of the turbo like Charlie mentioned earlier on this discussion email, seems like everyone uses the s= tandard V-band clamps on the exhaust side. =A0If there is something better = then the T-bar clamps, then Charlie is right about getting the word out; th= e engine builder put these hoses and clamps on and I understand Andy Chiove= ta did the engine install on this plane before I purchased the project. =A0= If it was the wrong setup you would think one of those two would have been = aware of the problem and changed them out. =A0Has anyone tried the new "Con= stant Tension Turbo Clamps"? =A0I'm told the Road Track race guys push thos= e to 100inch MP equivalent for entire races without any troubles. =A0Charli= e mentioned the new hoses are red. =A0I looked at my Cirrus and the boost h= oses on the induction are black. =A0So... if anyone has a definitive "best-= practices" I'm all ears and eager to upgrade.=09Charlie, I wish you the bes= t of luck selling your IVP, it is a beautiful plane!!!!!!! =A0 =A0It's a tough/sad time to sell. =A0I sold my last Cirrus when my new Cirrus came i= n and I took HUGE hit on it! =A0I kinda wonder if I would have been better = off to hold on to it and see if the market would come back a bit first. See= ms like your plane is really under priced for what it is. =A0The other chal= lenge I had with mine was I had put just over 800 hours on it in one year a= nd all the other 08's had around 100-200 hours. =A0I guess lower depreciati= on with hours is another nice thing about Experimental aircraft, most peopl= e feel better about a "proven" experimental then they do about a low time o= ne. =A0Seems like I lost nothing when I sold my RV6, I had 1,200 hours on i= t and the buyer LOVED that fact, and said that it made him feel good about = the plane. =A0=09Anyways. Take care and safe flying to all. Tailwinds,Mark Patey=0A=0A=0A --0-1276958738-1284409873=:20451 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=0A=0A --0-1276958738-1284409873=:20451--
All,
Mark Patey asked me to post this resp= onse to the group as he is a non subscribed member...

Randy SnarrN694RS

"Flight by machines heavier than air is unpractical and insi= gnificant, if not utterly impossible"
=0A-Simon Newcomb, 1902

---= On Mon, 9/13/10, Mark Patey <markpatey@me.com> wrote:<= br>

From: Mark Patey <markpatey@me.com>Subject: Engine Failure ATC transcript Super Legacy Twin Turbo TSIO 580To: randylsnarr@yahoo.com
Cc: "Mark Patey" <markpatey@me.com>Date: Monday, September 13, 2010, 9:19 AM

D= ear Lancair Drivers,
=09I've never been a part of the LML or the Lancair comm= unity at all, I guess I'm kind of an outsider in that regard, so this will = be my first real contract with everyone on the list.  I hope it's as f= riendly of a group as it seams to be as I read back on the history.  I don't know proper forum posting or internet chat proc= edures, so I hope I don't do or say something tabu.
=09Some great questions and comments have come up on this= discussion.  I'll do my best to add some additional info on my engine= failure.  Lynn Farnsworth had a couple good questions I thought I cou= ld address as well as some other questions I've been asked.
=091.  Why "big bang" instead of a "poof" li= ke Lynn's plane at Reno?  This one is simple. My aluminum turbo pipe i= s bent at a 90 right after the turbo clamp.  That 90 is 2 inches away = from my engine mount.  When the hose blew off, it hit the engine mount= ... hard!!!  It actually dented the aluminum pipe.  To me it felt= like someone hit the plane with a sledge hammer, the vibration transferred all = the way through the airframe.
=092= .  Why did it fail when Lynn's plane didn't fail or foul plugs?  = This is a multi part answer.  First, there is big difference between g= oing from boost to 26 inches MP like Lynn did, and going from boost to 14 i= nch MP like I did.  It comes down to fuel-to-air parts-per-million. &n= bsp;If you're fuel-to-air ratio is outside of the combustion parameters you= will go from "bang" in the cylinders to only "burn".  I recently did = some experiments at altitude to see if I could duplicate the results of my = emergency.  I went to 20,000 feet leveled off and set mixture and powe= r to high cruse power, 29in 21gph.  I then pulled the turbos off (manu= al waist-gates), and the engine dropped to about 13inch MP.  It lost a TON of power but it did NOT quit running.  EGT's where all still hot = and engine was reasonably smooth.  Leaning engine helped gain a little= power but not much.  Certainly not an emergency, it would just scare = you good if you weren't expecting it, some descent would be required, and y= ou would probably fly to the nearest airport to fix things.  I then tr= ied it a little different.  I pushed power up to climb settings, 38inc= h MP, full rich 44gph.  I pulled the turbos off again and dead engine.=  All EGT's around 200 and dropping fast. It was interesting to me tha= t the EGT's where colder then my CHT's.  I instantly pulled mixture to= get engine running again and it was shocking how long it took to fire. &nb= sp;Almost like when you over prime you're engine before starting it and hav= e to pull mixture to cutoff and crank it for a while before it fires. Howev= er, when you do that on the ground you have LOTS of air in those cylinders, unlike doing it up high.  Even though the RPMs were higher= then a starter could ever do, it still took so much time to fire that I st= arted to wonder if it would fire again at all.  It eventually did, and= ran smooth, just little power.  When my engine quit during the emerge= ncy I did not instantly pull mixture, there was at least 30 seconds before = I was trying to get the engine running again.  I had to get the situat= ion under control first.  Several things happened all at once when the= engine quit. The autopilot was set to climb at 180KIAS so when the big fan= stopped pulling and started acting like a 4 bladed air-brake, the plane pi= tched hard forward and left me floating up against my seatbelt. There is no= thing like watching your cell phone slowly floating up toward the canopy as= you quickly round out a climb into a dive you weren't planning on.  T= he plane was also trimmed with lots of rudder for a high power climb, so now the plane was yawing hard to the side leaving me with only o= ne hand to fly as the other was against the canopy pushing me upright in my= seat.  By the time I declared my emergency, trimmed out the plane, ev= aluated surrounding airport weather, looked for alternate airports to the e= ast, and made some tough decisions, the engine was as flooded and fouled as= a plane can get. Lots of "burn" in the cylinders and no "bang"!  It's= like when someone taxi's at a high altitude airport with the mixture full = and the plugs foul up on that short trip to the runway, and that's WITH "ba= ng" in the cylinders. My situation was like that only minus the bang that k= eeps plugs clean, and then multiply the fuel flow by 19 and reduce the air = in the cylinders by half.
=093. &= nbsp;What might be different between the Continental and Lycoming in this situation?  Well one big thing might be the electric fuel pumps. &nbs= p;On my Cirrus (Turbo Contintinal 550) and on my Continental powered Legacy= (Also turbo),  I have a "High Boost/Prime" and "Low Boost" settings o= n the pump.  High to prime and low for the climb.  On the  L= ycoming you have one pump setting and it is "High/Prime" and you leave it o= n for the climb.  So when my failure happened, I was Power Lever Full,= Mixture Full, Boost/Prime pump ON and very little air in the cylinders. &n= bsp;Would a Continental quit at altitude? I don't know;  I would only = guess not, unless you had the fuel pump on high/prime but that is not the n= ormal engine management procedures so I doubt anyone would find themselves = in that situation.  My other legacy has automatic waist gates so I can= 't take that one to altitude and pull the turbos out to test that theory. &= nbsp;I also don't know if there is any difference between how the servos meter fuel.  It may be that the Continental will just push the= extra fuel back to the wing, the Lycoming can't do that, there is no fuel = return to the wing.
=094.  Wh= y didn't you pull the mixture immediately to keep engine from flooding and = fouling?  Two reasons. One, I was alway told when you have an engine f= ailure you first AVIATE - best-glide KIAS, trim and configure... NAVIGATE -= Pick a field and turn toward it... then INVESTIGATE and COMMUNICATE.  = ;Also recognize I had no reason to think that engine was ever coming b= ack to life.  Imagine yourself in the same spot not knowing what you k= now now.  Loud bang heard and FELT through the plane, all EGT'S and OI= L PRESSURE instantly go into the red and set off alarms.  Unless this = has happened before, your first assumption probably will not be to pull the mixture to within a quarter inch of full off to get the engine to run. &nb= sp;You just might think, like I did, that something just went through the c= ase.  It wasn't until  later that I got a chance to work on getti= ng the engine to run.  It was only then that I realized the oil was on= ly red because it went from 60PSI to bellow 30PSI (red alarm is at 30PSI an= d below).  When I saw I had 26PSI on my oil, I thought "well that's a = good sign, what else might be the problem."  My next step was to pull = mixture until the engine started to run.  Only 3 cylinders would fire.=  As I continued pulling the mixture in hopes the others cylinders wou= ld fire, I eventually got to the mixture cut off, and no surprise, the 3 ho= t cylinders shut off too.  So I pushed it in and set it to the smoothe= st possible setting, about 1,300 EGT on the three cylinders.
=095.  Why as you got lower didn't= you advance the power beyond 14inch MP?  Well as the power increased = in only three cylinders the vibration was frightening.  I made one att= empt to push the power up and it started "kicking"  I don't really kno= w why the "kick", my only guess is that one or more of the dead cylinders w= here somehow trying to fire as the piston was on the upstroke. I knew I had= 700FPM required to hit my target and I was descending at around 600-650FPM= .  So if I could keep the engine from blowing itself apart I would mak= e the field.
=096.  How is th= e turbo system set up?  Standard twin turbo setup other then manual wa= ist-gates (they are coming off, don't like 'em) The boost lines "Y" togethe= r before the servo, the exhaust pipes are separate, 3 cylinders to each tur= bo, two waist-gates.
=09
=09I'm interested to learn more about the= new and improved hoses and clamps Charlie talked about.  I have had t= he same hoses and clamps on my other Legacy and after 450 hours now I've ne= ver had a failure, I fly usually between 16,000 and 25,000 feet between 25 = and 30 inch MP and I have never had one blow off, but like most I have hear= d of it happening to other pilots on several occasions.  My newer Lega= cy, N913MP, now has about 200 hours with no failure but the one, and in thi= s case the clamp simply wasn't tightened, I put the hose and clamp back on = the turbo without having to loosen it .  All that being said, if there= is something better, I want it on my planes yesterday.  I must admit, I have never= seen anyone use a T-bar clamp on the exhaust side of the turbo like Charli= e mentioned earlier on this discussion email, seems like everyone uses= the standard V-band clamps on the exhaust side.  If there is somethin= g better then the T-bar clamps, then Charlie is right about getting the wor= d out; the engine builder put these hoses and clamps on and I understand An= dy Chioveta did the engine install on this plane before I purchased the pro= ject.  If it was the wrong setup you would think one of those two woul= d have been aware of the problem and changed them out.  Has anyone tri= ed the new "Constant Tension Turbo Clamps"?  I'm told the Road Track r= ace guys push those to 100inch MP equivalent for entire races without any t= roubles.  Charlie mentioned the new hoses are red.  I looked at my Cirrus and the boost hoses on the induction are black.  So... i= f anyone has a definitive "best-practices" I'm all ears and eager to upgrad= e.
=09Charlie, I wish you the best= of luck selling your IVP, it is a beautiful plane!!!!!!!    It's= a tough/sad time to sell.  I sold my last Cirrus when my new Cirrus c= ame in and I took HUGE hit on it!  I kinda wonder if I would have been= better off to hold on to it and see if the market would come back a bit fi= rst. Seems like your plane is really under priced for what it is.  The= other challenge I had with mine was I had put just over 800 hours on it in= one year and all the other 08's had around 100-200 hours.  I guess lo= wer depreciation with hours is another nice thing about Experimental aircra= ft, most people feel better about a "proven" experimental then they do abou= t a low time one.  Seems like I lost nothing when I sold my RV6, I had = 1,200 hours on it and the buyer LOVED that fact, and said that it made him = feel good about the plane.  
=09Anyways. Take care and safe flying to all.

Tailwinds,
Mark Patey