X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 20:42:14 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from web54301.mail.re2.yahoo.com ([206.190.49.111] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.9) with SMTP id 4462608 for lml@lancaironline.net; Fri, 10 Sep 2010 16:20:49 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=206.190.49.111; envelope-from=mattinlosangeles@yahoo.com Received: (qmail 85445 invoked by uid 60001); 10 Sep 2010 20:20:08 -0000 DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=GclKyPjAHzHD/GsHgQZr/o+Ns47T/OBJ9Q7HKyWvKGIJpn9WgV0kws5usaJ8lBe99wnRhpwr8Ug40+bATIcX2PHi6prMY4IDyta6xuvqBsjB2xk14qvaED5IlmRYNucKle8SJPFzzcRDKdorc5+tdy+Cnu6DFYj/yOnylXQxCF4=; X-Original-Message-ID: <370290.75859.qm@web54301.mail.re2.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: x.9qx3IVM1nNwcOjrJCtIlfv.O43JUMUFOeJD8gM5R4QHfz I_7gMli8yE9wkETECyXojUo_3u1JCYToPOpJ227QJE_Wb5FHhQjbVcUmdwjp hh.QgZGgJLeCqnqe6IEnl_3H82ngSQ8.p3nzMWE1yz1tiAFp1nn1N1f3ISyK XbetRYV7OTxvvy4VRmxluXGvsSv0sRbjwZkBCQfuw5cCCJk17ClT0xyZcF.S zr5l8SnsqatqPqMgag0nGlII1yGAsxy4npA7MQYX0tMIzOy5AEBfTfKrUsfz 9kJ9AlDilCKdA2qUY4MLAswlFYiK5mWxZVjtNw1ZjOiP5QvvCkqaVv4vaP3G b4B6hsgtg2xz6CXDw5.UmVWjuEZn0kXSoNLGL Received: from [12.155.58.181] by web54301.mail.re2.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 10 Sep 2010 13:20:08 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/470 YahooMailWebService/0.8.105.279950 References: X-Original-Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 13:20:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Matt losangeles Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Engine failure ATC Transcript Super Legacy Twin Turbo TSIO 580 X-Original-To: Lancair Mailing List In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-483865929-1284150008=:75859" --0-483865929-1284150008=:75859 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Has anyone heard of the Turbo sr22 Cirrus having this sort of problem. It d= oes =0Anot have the exhaust interconnect that the typical tsio-550 has. It = has instead, =0Atwo wastegates. There is a cable connecting one to the othe= r and the one =0Acontroller moves them both this way.=0A=0ALynn, does your = exhaust have an interconnect or does it have two wastegates like =0Athe Cir= rus?=0A=0AMatt=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Gary = Casey =0ATo: lml@lancaironline.net=0ASent: Fri, Septe= mber 10, 2010 12:18:12 PM=0ASubject: [LML] Re: Engine failure ATC Transcrip= t Super Legacy Twin Turbo TSIO =0A580=0A=0A=0AThe questions below are certa= inly correct. =A0Another post said that the two =0Aturbos were plumbed to b= e independent from each other, each with its own =0Awastegate. =A0Then how = was the fuel metered? =A0One could use a separate fuel =0Acontrol servo on = each turbo, but I doubt that it was done that way. =A0I suspect a =0Asingle= servo fed both turbos, measuring the total air. =A0That's the difference = =0Abetween the Continental proprietary system and the Lycoming system built= by =0APrecision Airmotive(was Bendix). =A0The Bendix system measures air f= low and the =0AContinental system measures throttle position and engine spe= ed, with altitude =0Acompensated versions being compensated for manifold pr= essure. =A0Regardless, =0Ahaving one bank pressurized to a different pressu= re than the other makes =0Aaccurate fuel metering difficult or impossible. = =A0If indeed one bank lost boost =0Ait would be very unlikely that the engi= ne could be made to run on more than 3 =0Acylinders at a time (and I also s= uspect that the report of "3,4,6" was incorrect =0A- it mostly likely was 2= ,4,6 or 1,3,5. =A0Or it would not be =A0unlikely that the =0Atemp probes we= re mixed up and never detected.=0A=0AWhen I changed any part of the design = I used the rigor of conventional Failure =0AModes and Effects Analysis (FME= A) to evaluate all possible failure modes. =A0That =0Awould have driven me = (I hope) to provide an intake manifold interconnect between =0Aengine banks= . =A0I like single turbos, partly for that reason.=0A=0AGary Casey=0AES, no= t P, not even T=0A=0A=0A=0Anotwithstanding Charlies' comments I don't under= stand exactly what happened to =0A3,4,6. =A0 The video says Mark tried movi= ng the mixture both directions with no =0Asuccess. =A0 I'm not understandin= g why that didn't help...unless half the =0Acylinders have reduced pressure= and other half have higher pressure so there is =0Anot optimal mixture. = =A0 Also why 3,4,6 and not 2,4,6. =A0 Was this a Lycoming? =0A=A0also, also= , why did the plugs foul so quickly? =0A=0A=0Aon a Continental the turbo ou= tputs are merged so that if you lose, e.g. one =0Ahose, you would lose pres= sure on all cylinders. =A0 at least then all cylinders =0Aface the same mix= ture situation.=0A=0A=0A=0A --0-483865929-1284150008=:75859 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Has anyone heard of the Turbo sr22 Cirrus having this = sort of problem. It does not have the exhaust interconnect that the typical= tsio-550 has. It has instead, two wastegates. There is a cable connecting = one to the other and the one controller moves them both this way.
=0A<= DIV> 
=0A
Lynn, does your exhaust have an interconnect or doe= s it have two wastegates like the Cirrus?
=0A
 
=0A
= Matt
=0A

=0A
= =0A
=0AFrom: Ga= ry Casey <casey.gary@yahoo.com>
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Sent: Fri, September 10, 2010 12:18:12 PM
Subject: [LML] Re: Engine failure ATC Tra= nscript Super Legacy Twin Turbo TSIO 580

=0A
=0A
The questions below are certainly corre= ct.  Another post said that the two turbos were plumbed to be independ= ent from each other, each with its own wastegate.  Then how was the fu= el metered?  One could use a separate fuel control servo on each turbo= , but I doubt that it was done that way.  I suspect a single servo fed= both turbos, measuring the total air.  That's the difference between = the Continental proprietary system and the Lycoming system built by Precisi= on Airmotive(was Bendix).  The Bendix system measures air flow and the= Continental system measures throttle position and engine speed, with altit= ude compensated versions being compensated for manifold pressure.  Regardless, having one bank pressurized to a different pre= ssure than the other makes accurate fuel metering difficult or impossible. =  If indeed one bank lost boost it would be very unlikely that the engi= ne could be made to run on more than 3 cylinders at a time (and I also susp= ect that the report of "3,4,6" was incorrect - it mostly likely was 2,4,6 o= r 1,3,5.  Or it would not be  unlikely that the temp probes were = mixed up and never detected.
=0A
=
=
=0A
When I changed any part of the design I used the rigor of co= nventional Failure Modes and Effects Analysis (FMEA) to evaluate all possib= le failure modes.  That would have driven me (I hope) to provide an in= take manifold interconnect between engine banks.  I like single turbos= , partly for that reason.
=0A

=0A
Gary Casey
=0A
ES, not P, not even T
=0A


=0A
notwithstanding C= harlies' comments I don't understand exactly what happened to 3,4,6.  = The video says Mark tried moving the mixture both directions with no succe= ss.   I'm not understanding why that didn't help...unless half the cyl= inders have reduced pressure and other half have higher pressure so there i= s not optimal mixture.   Also why 3,4,6 and not 2,4,6.   Was this= a Lycoming?  also, also, why did the plugs foul so quickly? =0A

=0A
on a Continent= al the turbo outputs are merged so that if you lose, e.g. one hose, you wou= ld lose pressure on all cylinders.   at least then all cylinders face = the same mixture situation.
<= /DIV>=0A


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