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Subject: Re: [LML] Re: More on Ed Smith's accident
X-Original-Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 11:33:20 -0400
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good point.
I did it for my airplane, which is very forward CG.
If I load it up to max weight, max rear CG that I can come up with, =
losing prop and oil puts me 3% out the back.
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Bill Wade=20
  To: lml@lancaironline.net=20
  Sent: Monday, March 22, 2010 10:16 AM
  Subject: [LML] Re: More on Ed Smith's accident


    I did some calculations- don't forget that the prop FELL OFF. That =
and the loss of oil changed the W&B immediately and dramatically.

    I don't know how the plane was loaded so I used W&B figures for a =
IV-P that Lancair had sent me and added guesses of my own for fuel and =
baggage:=20

                       Weight         Arm                Mom             =
    Station

  Empty-          2377                               214876              =
    90.40

  Pilot-               170             98                16660

  Co-pilot-           170             98                16660

  50 gal fuel         300            94.8              28440

  25# backseat       25          129                  3225
  _________________________________________________________

  Total                3042                            279,861           =
     91.99

  So far so good. Now lose the prop.

  Prop-                 78              9 (est)             702

  Spinner                2              9                      18

  Flange & bolts      2            12 (est)               24

  8 qt oil               14             30 (est)             420
  _____________________________________________

                           96                                  1,164
                         ____                               ______

  Result:            2946                               278,697          =
    94.6

  I estimated the weight of the spinner and flange, the prop weight is =
Hartzell's value for a PHC-H3YF. I also made my best guess of the arms =
from Hartzell and TCM info. Oil is a guesstimate based on what I use in =
an IO-550. The CG limits for a IV-P are 86.5- 94.5.

    If the Smiths weighed more than 340# combined or if they had baggage =
in the rear the results would've been worse.

   Now imagine you're trying to fly a plane that's out of the envelope, =
has known stall issues, and keeps trying to raise its nose. All you =
could do would be to keep speed up to maintain elevator authority. In =
addition, the engine oil would have immediately pumped out of the =
crankshaft onto the windshield until the engine seized up.

    I hope I never have to try to match Ed's accomplishment. I don't =
know what the situation was on the beach but I think there was a =
combination of circumstances that led to the tragedy through nobody's =
fault.  -Bill Wade           
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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>good point.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I did it for my airplane, which is very =
forward=20
CG.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>If I load it up to max weight, max rear =
CG that I=20
can come up with, losing prop and oil puts me 3% out the =
back.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=3Dsuper_chipmunk@roadrunner.com=20
  href=3D"mailto:super_chipmunk@roadrunner.com">Bill Wade</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dlml@lancaironline.net=20
  href=3D"mailto:lml@lancaironline.net">lml@lancaironline.net</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, March 22, 2010 =
10:16=20
  AM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [LML] Re: More on Ed =
Smith's=20
  accident</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp; I did some calculations- don't =
forget that=20
  the prop FELL OFF. That and the loss of oil changed the W&amp;B =
immediately=20
  and dramatically.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp; I don't know how the plane was =
loaded so I=20
  used W&amp;B figures for a IV-P that Lancair had sent me and added =
guesses of=20
  my own for fuel and baggage: </FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial=20
  =
size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
  Weight&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
  =
Arm&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
  =
Mom&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Station</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial=20
  size=3D2>Empty-&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
  =
2377&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
  =
214876&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;90.40</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial=20
  =
size=3D2>Pilot-&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
  =
170&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;=20
  =
98&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;16660</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial=20
  =
size=3D2>Co-pilot-&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;170&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;98&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
  16660</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>50 gal=20
  fuel&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
  300&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
  =
94.8&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;28440</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>25# =
backseat&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
  =
25&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;129&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
  3225</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial=20
  =
size=3D2>_________________________________________________________</FONT>=
</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial=20
  =
size=3D2>Total&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
  =
3042&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
  =
279,861&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
  91.99</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>So far so good. Now lose the =
prop.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial=20
  =
size=3D2>Prop-&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
  =
78&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;=20
  9=20
  =
(est)&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;=20
  702</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial=20
  =
size=3D2>Spinner&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
  =
2&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;=20
  =
9&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
  18</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Flange &amp; =
bolts&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
  =
2&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
12=20
  =
(est)&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
  24</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>8 qt=20
  =
oil&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
  =
14&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;30=20
  =
(est)&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;420</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial=20
  size=3D2>_____________________________________________</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial=20
  =
size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;=20
  =
96&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
  1,164</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial=20
  =
size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
  =
____&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
  ______</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial=20
  =
size=3D2>Result:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;=20
  =
2946&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
  =
278,697&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
  94.6</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I&nbsp;estimated the weight of the =
spinner and=20
  flange, the prop weight is&nbsp;Hartzell's value for a PHC-H3YF. I =
also made=20
  my best guess of the arms from Hartzell and TCM info. Oil is a =
guesstimate=20
  based on what I use in an IO-550.&nbsp;The CG limits for a =
IV-P&nbsp;are 86.5-=20
  94.5.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp; If the Smiths weighed more =
than&nbsp;340#=20
  combined or if they had baggage in the&nbsp;rear the results would've =
been=20
  worse.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;Now imagine you're trying to =
fly a plane=20
  that's out of the envelope, has known stall issues, and keeps trying =
to raise=20
  its nose. All you could do would be to keep speed up to&nbsp;maintain =
elevator=20
  authority. In addition, the engine oil would have&nbsp;immediately =
pumped out=20
  of the crankshaft onto the windshield&nbsp;until the engine seized=20
  up.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp; I hope I never have to try to =
match Ed's=20
  accomplishment. I don't know what the situation was on the beach but I =
think=20
  there was a combination of circumstances that led to the tragedy =
through=20
  nobody's fault.&nbsp; -Bill=20
  Wade&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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