X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: <marv@lancaironline.net> Sender: <marv@lancaironline.net> To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 11:59:44 -0400 Message-ID: <redirect-4174601@logan.com> X-Original-Return-Path: <colyncase@earthlink.net> Received: from elasmtp-kukur.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([209.86.89.65] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.4) with ESMTP id 4174555 for lml@lancaironline.net; Mon, 22 Mar 2010 11:33:54 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.86.89.65; envelope-from=colyncase@earthlink.net DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=jRsMEd893BWOnP67RsnZnoDG49i7pcdlfCtt+sg7tD1BOMzlaOu6mQqK4azFG+Ix; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [216.57.118.178] (helo=ccaselt3) by elasmtp-kukur.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from <colyncase@earthlink.net>) id 1Ntjd2-00035z-Gw for lml@lancaironline.net; Mon, 22 Mar 2010 11:33:20 -0400 X-Original-Message-ID: <0EA2D02ECAED4C1EADD79CD622EC65D7@nvidia.com> From: "Colyn Case at earthlink" <colyncase@earthlink.net> X-Original-To: "Lancair Mailing List" <lml@lancaironline.net> References: <list-4174442@logan.com> Subject: Re: [LML] Re: More on Ed Smith's accident X-Original-Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 11:33:20 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_1635_01CAC9B3.796FCEE0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5843 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 X-ELNK-Trace: 63d5d3452847f8b1d6dd28457998182d7e972de0d01da9400dca4a93706be711835d3fa1b5965989350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 216.57.118.178 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_1635_01CAC9B3.796FCEE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable good point. I did it for my airplane, which is very forward CG. If I load it up to max weight, max rear CG that I can come up with, = losing prop and oil puts me 3% out the back. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Bill Wade=20 To: lml@lancaironline.net=20 Sent: Monday, March 22, 2010 10:16 AM Subject: [LML] Re: More on Ed Smith's accident I did some calculations- don't forget that the prop FELL OFF. That = and the loss of oil changed the W&B immediately and dramatically. I don't know how the plane was loaded so I used W&B figures for a = IV-P that Lancair had sent me and added guesses of my own for fuel and = baggage:=20 Weight Arm Mom = Station Empty- 2377 214876 = 90.40 Pilot- 170 98 16660 Co-pilot- 170 98 16660 50 gal fuel 300 94.8 28440 25# backseat 25 129 3225 _________________________________________________________ Total 3042 279,861 = 91.99 So far so good. Now lose the prop. Prop- 78 9 (est) 702 Spinner 2 9 18 Flange & bolts 2 12 (est) 24 8 qt oil 14 30 (est) 420 _____________________________________________ 96 1,164 ____ ______ Result: 2946 278,697 = 94.6 I estimated the weight of the spinner and flange, the prop weight is = Hartzell's value for a PHC-H3YF. I also made my best guess of the arms = from Hartzell and TCM info. Oil is a guesstimate based on what I use in = an IO-550. The CG limits for a IV-P are 86.5- 94.5. If the Smiths weighed more than 340# combined or if they had baggage = in the rear the results would've been worse. Now imagine you're trying to fly a plane that's out of the envelope, = has known stall issues, and keeps trying to raise its nose. All you = could do would be to keep speed up to maintain elevator authority. In = addition, the engine oil would have immediately pumped out of the = crankshaft onto the windshield until the engine seized up. I hope I never have to try to match Ed's accomplishment. I don't = know what the situation was on the beach but I think there was a = combination of circumstances that led to the tragedy through nobody's = fault. -Bill Wade ------=_NextPart_000_1635_01CAC9B3.796FCEE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =EF=BB=BF<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8"> <META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.6000.16981" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>good point.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I did it for my airplane, which is very = forward=20 CG.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>If I load it up to max weight, max rear = CG that I=20 can come up with, losing prop and oil puts me 3% out the = back.</FONT></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20 style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV=20 style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = black"><B>From:</B>=20 <A title=3Dsuper_chipmunk@roadrunner.com=20 href=3D"mailto:super_chipmunk@roadrunner.com">Bill Wade</A> </DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A = title=3Dlml@lancaironline.net=20 href=3D"mailto:lml@lancaironline.net">lml@lancaironline.net</A> </DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, March 22, 2010 = 10:16=20 AM</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [LML] Re: More on Ed = Smith's=20 accident</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> I did some calculations- don't = forget that=20 the prop FELL OFF. That and the loss of oil changed the W&B = immediately=20 and dramatically.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> I don't know how the plane was = loaded so I=20 used W&B figures for a IV-P that Lancair had sent me and added = guesses of=20 my own for fuel and baggage: </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial=20 = size=3D2> &nbs= p; =20 Weight =20 = Arm &nbs= p; =20 = Mom &nbs= p; Station</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial=20 size=3D2>Empty- =20 = 2377 &nb= sp; &nbs= p; =20 = 214876 &= nbsp; 90.40</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial=20 = size=3D2>Pilot- &nbs= p; =20 = 170 &nbs= p;=20 = 98  = ; 16660</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial=20 = size=3D2>Co-pilot- &= nbsp; 170  = ; 98 &nbs= p; =20 16660</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>50 gal=20 fuel =20 300 =20 = 94.8 &nb= sp; 28440</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>25# = backseat =20 = 25 129 &n= bsp; &nb= sp; =20 3225</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial=20 = size=3D2>_________________________________________________________</FONT>= </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial=20 = size=3D2>Total  = ; =20 = 3042 &nb= sp; &nbs= p; =20 = 279,861 = =20 91.99</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>So far so good. Now lose the = prop.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial=20 = size=3D2>Prop-  = ; =20 = 78  = ; =20 9=20 = (est) &n= bsp;=20 702</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial=20 = size=3D2>Spinner &nb= sp; =20 = 2 = =20 = 9 = =20 18</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Flange & = bolts =20 = 2 = 12=20 = (est) &n= bsp; =20 24</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>8 qt=20 = oil &nbs= p; =20 = 14  = ; 30=20 = (est) &n= bsp; 420</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial=20 size=3D2>_____________________________________________</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial=20 = size=3D2> &nbs= p;  = ; =20 = 96  = ; = =20 1,164</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial=20 = size=3D2> &nbs= p; =20 = ____ &nb= sp; &nbs= p; =20 ______</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial=20 = size=3D2>Result: &nb= sp; =20 = 2946 &nb= sp; &nbs= p; =20 = 278,697 = =20 94.6</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I estimated the weight of the = spinner and=20 flange, the prop weight is Hartzell's value for a PHC-H3YF. I = also made=20 my best guess of the arms from Hartzell and TCM info. Oil is a = guesstimate=20 based on what I use in an IO-550. The CG limits for a = IV-P are 86.5-=20 94.5.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> If the Smiths weighed more = than 340#=20 combined or if they had baggage in the rear the results would've = been=20 worse.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> Now imagine you're trying to = fly a plane=20 that's out of the envelope, has known stall issues, and keeps trying = to raise=20 its nose. All you could do would be to keep speed up to maintain = elevator=20 authority. In addition, the engine oil would have immediately = pumped out=20 of the crankshaft onto the windshield until the engine seized=20 up.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> I hope I never have to try to = match Ed's=20 accomplishment. I don't know what the situation was on the beach but I = think=20 there was a combination of circumstances that led to the tragedy = through=20 nobody's fault. -Bill=20 Wade =20 </FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_1635_01CAC9B3.796FCEE0--