X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2008 12:08:09 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from imo-d21.mx.aol.com ([205.188.144.207] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.6) with ESMTP id 3091215 for lml@lancaironline.net; Sun, 24 Aug 2008 11:48:51 -0400 Received: from VTAILJEFF@aol.com by imo-d21.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v38_r10.8.) id q.c98.33afb6ce (37048) for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2008 11:48:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtprly-da01.mx.aol.com (smtprly-da01.mx.aol.com [205.188.249.144]) by cia-db03.mx.aol.com (v121_r2.11) with ESMTP id MAILCIADB036-90b848b182dd1b4; Sun, 24 Aug 2008 11:48:45 -0400 Received: from WEBMAIL-MB14 (webmail-mb14.webmail.aol.com [64.12.170.162]) by smtprly-da01.mx.aol.com (v121_r2.12) with ESMTP id MAILSMTPRLYDA015-5bae48b182d9189; Sun, 24 Aug 2008 11:48:41 -0400 References: X-Original-To: lml@lancaironline.net Subject: Re: [LML] Re: some thoughts on accidents X-Original-Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2008 11:48:41 -0400 X-AOL-IP: 71.213.41.99 In-Reply-To: X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI MIME-Version: 1.0 From: vtailjeff@aol.com X-MB-Message-Type: User Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="--------MB_8CAD41804373054_868_8660_WEBMAIL-MB14.sysops.aol.com" X-Mailer: AOL Webmail 38491-STANDARD Received: from 71.213.41.99 by WEBMAIL-MB14.sysops.aol.com (64.12.170.162) with HTTP (WebMailUI); Sun, 24 Aug 2008 11:48:41 -0400 X-Original-Message-Id: <8CAD418042DA6E8-868-426E@WEBMAIL-MB14.sysops.aol.com> X-Spam-Flag:NO ----------MB_8CAD41804373054_868_8660_WEBMAIL-MB14.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" David, Intentional violations of regulations in my book is irresponsible behavior.=20= Fly responsibly ---obey the laws. I do not see any platitudes in that statem= ent. Some people just don't like obeying the law--that's why society builds=20= =C2=A0prisons. That's why the law of physics and aero work in flying. Do pilots intentionally fly into thunderstoms? Answer, yes... how do you thi= nk they got there? Fell asleep and the autopilot got them there? Lay the responsibility at the feet of the instructor =C2=A0community? Got to= be kidding! =C2=A0I am responsible for pilots not taking training? =C2=A0Ho= w am I responsible for a pilot who never takes type specific training? How a= m I responsible for a pilot who I give a check ride to and crashes three yea= rs down the road? Every pilot has to demonstrate =C2=A0to his flight instruc= tor and on every pilot certificate checkride that he can recognize a stall u= nder various conditions and recover from a stall. So now he "forgot" how to=20= do that on landing at OSH and it is some flight instructor's fault? Are there good instructors and poor instructors? Absolutely, choose wisely.=20= =C2=A0A weatlhy fellow at our airport called me and wanted to get an instrum= ent rating so he could fly his warbird (A1E Skyraider). I sent him a copy of= the syllabus and quoted him a price. He chose to go with a young =C2=A0bran= d new CFI for about $!5 / hour. My lawn guy makes more an hour. You get what= you pay for. The overreaching problem is low time pil ots getting into high performance aircraft with no training whatsoever. No e= xperience + no training =3D high risk. We lost more pilots in WW2 in trainin= g than in combat. Why? It would be interesting to ask how many listers/lurkers here have had no Lnc= air type specific training from a recognized instructor. Jeff -----Original Message----- From: marv@lancair.net To: lml Sent: Sat, 23 Aug 2008 7:45 pm Subject: [LML] Re: some thoughts on accidents Posted for "Taylor, David" :=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Jeff,=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Saying pilots should be more responsible is like saying people should=20= be=C2=A0 smarter. It is a platitude and has no meaning. And worse, it has no bearin= g=C2=A0 on reality and only obscures the real problems we have. Do you honestly kno= w=C2=A0 of any pilot who intentionally flies thru thunderstorms?=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Jeff, I hate to say this but I lay part of the responsibility at the f= eet of=C2=A0 the training community. I think they are missing some critical elements in= =C2=A0 their curriculum. Extensive flight training at high angles of attack (low= =C2=A0 airspeed) and stall training and stall awareness is one of them. (Telling=20= us=C2=A0 all not to ever get the airplane slow are more platitudes that have no=C2= =A0 relation to the reality of flying.)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Also as I said before, REGULAR training and practice is mandatory, not= a=20 nice=C2=A0 option. An d I mean something like every 4th or 5th flight should be a=C2=A0 training flight. (What else are you going to do with your time =E2=80=93 th= is is fun=C2=A0 right?)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0These machines aint no 172 and they require a commitment and PRACTICE=20= =E2=80=93 but=C2=A0 that=E2=80=99s why I love them!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0So if you want to talk about =E2=80=9Cresponsibility=E2=80=9D, that= =E2=80=99s fine. But do it in=20 the=C2=A0 context of useful recommends for our behavior as pilots.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0David T.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Legacy RG=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 --=C2=A0 For archives and unsub http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.html= =C2=A0 =20 ----------MB_8CAD41804373054_868_8660_WEBMAIL-MB14.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" David,

Intentional violations of regulations in my book is irresponsible behav= ior. Fly responsibly ---obey the laws. I do not see any platitudes in that s= tatement. Some people just don't like obeying the law--that's why society bu= ilds =C2=A0prisons. That's why the law of physics and aero work in flying.

Do pilots intentionally fly into thunderstoms? Answer, yes... how do yo= u think they got there? Fell asleep and the autopilot got them there?

Lay the responsibility at the feet of the instructor =C2=A0community? G= ot to be kidding! =C2=A0I am responsible for pilots not taking training?=20= =C2=A0How am I responsible for a pilot who never takes type specific trainin= g? How am I responsible for a pilot who I give a check ride to and crashes t= hree years down the road? Every pilot has to demonstrate =C2=A0to his flight= instructor and on every pilot certificate checkride that he can recognize a= stall under various conditions and recover from a stall. So now he "forgot"= how to do that on landing at OSH and it is some flight instructor's fault?<= /div>

Are there good instructors and poor instructors? Absolutely, choose wis= ely. =C2=A0A weatlhy fellow at our airport called me and wanted to get an in= strument rating so he could fly his warbird (A1E Skyraider). I sent him a co= py of the syllabus and quoted him a price. He chose to go with a young A 0brand new CFI for about $!5 / hour. My lawn guy makes more an hour. You get= what you pay for.

The overreaching problem is low time pilots getting into high performan= ce aircraft with no training whatsoever. No experience + no training =3D hig= h risk. We lost more pilots in WW2 in training than in combat. Why?

It would be interesting to ask how many listers/lurkers here have had n= o Lncair type specific training from a recognized instructor.

Jeff




-----Original Message-----
From: marv@lancair.net
To: lml
Sent: Sat, 23 Aug 2008 7:45 pm
Subject: [LML] Re: some thoughts on accidents

Posted for "Taylor, David" <d= taylor@crescentpark.com>:=C2=A0
=C2=A0
=C2=A0Jeff,=C2=A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Saying pilots should be more responsible is like saying people should=20= be=C2=A0
smarter. It is a platitude and has no meaning. And worse, it has no bearin= g=C2=A0
on reality and only obscures the real problems we have. Do you honestly kno= w=C2=A0
of any pilot who intentionally flies thru thunderstorms?=C2=A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Jeff, I hate to say this but I lay part of the responsibility at the f= eet of=C2=A0
the training community. I t hink they are missing some critical elements in=C2=A0
their curriculum. Extensive flight training at high angles of attack (low= =C2=A0
airspeed) and stall training and stall awareness is one of them. (Telling=20= us=C2=A0
all not to ever get the airplane slow are more platitudes that have no=C2= =A0
relation to the reality of flying.)=C2=A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Also as I said before, REGULAR training and practice is mandatory, not= a=20 nice=C2=A0
option. And I mean something like every 4th or 5th flight should be a=C2= =A0
training flight. (What else are you going to do with your time =E2=80=93 th= is is fun=C2=A0
right?)=C2=A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0These machines aint no 172 and they require a commitment and PRACTICE=20= =E2=80=93 but=C2=A0
that=E2=80=99s why I love them!=C2=A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0So if you want to talk about =E2=80=9Cresponsibility=E2=80=9D, that= =E2=80=99s fine. But do it in=20 the=C2=A0
context of useful recommends for our behavior as pilots.=C2=A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0David T.=C2=A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Legacy RG=C2=A0
=C2=A0=C2=A0
--=C2=A0
For archives and unsub http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/Lis= t.html=C2=A0
Get the MapQuest Toolbar. Directions, Traffic, Gas Prices &=20= More!
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