X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2008 11:29:42 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from imo-d20.mx.aol.com ([205.188.139.136] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.6) with ESMTP id 3081013 for lml@lancaironline.net; Sun, 17 Aug 2008 18:54:32 -0400 Received: from Sky2high@aol.com by imo-d20.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v38_r10.8.) id q.be9.3632ed79 (32914) for ; Sun, 17 Aug 2008 18:54:25 -0400 (EDT) From: Sky2high@aol.com X-Original-Message-ID: X-Original-Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2008 18:54:24 EDT Subject: Re: [LML] Re: VFR on top X-Original-To: lml@lancaironline.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1219013664" X-Mailer: Unknown sub 34 X-Spam-Flag:NO -------------------------------1219013664 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ron, Thanks, I'll try to be patient. Scott In a message dated 8/17/2008 12:41:09 P.M. Central Daylight Time, cfi@instructor.net writes: Well, actually there are two separate issues. The first one is to allow you to use GPS for your primary navigation using the WAAS cert. Secondly, the ATC manuals are not and have not kept up with the rest of the RNAV aircraft rules. The 7110.65 (ATC manual chapter 4) does not care about what type navigation you are using (WAAS or non WAAS) when going direct, radar monitoring is required. That is the issue that I'm working on right now at FAA headquarters. I'd sure like to think this can be complete this year, but the FAA works at the speed of light....um I mean dark. (is dark slow?). I would anticipate these rules in place in Alaska within a month, then sometime after that in the CONUS. ERAM is taking a lot of our time at the moment too which is the En Route Automation Modernization system for all the ARTCC's. (replacement of all hardware and software exept displays). First facility that will start using it will take place in Februrary at Salt Lake City ARTCC. Nothing changes for the pilots, but the controllers will have many more new tools. Ron Galbraith ----- Original Message ----- From: Sky2high@aol.com To: lml@lancaironline.net Subject: [LML] Re: VFR on top Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2008 12:12:23 -0400 Ron, You have only caused greater confusion for me. I understood that even with an approach certified GPS (say, an old Garmin 430 filed as a /G) it could not be used as a primary navigation device outside of radar coverage areas. Then along came WAAS. After a certain FAA approved software level, a Garmin 430W (again still filed as /G) was now certified for sole navigation anywhere in the continental US as long as there was appropriate WAAS coverage and the hell with "radar coverage" (not much in mountainous regions anyway). I thought I could go direct anywhere with such a system (ATC permitting) as that is what various public documents have led me to believe. Grayhawk PS What use are those sloppy low altitude airways anyway (deviations and deviants being what they are)? In a message dated 8/15/2008 3:26:23 P.M. Central Daylight Time, cfi@instructor.net writes: I'd like to clarify a misconception about flying VFR on top or OTP as the controller sees it in his flight plan and on the data block on the scope. This clearance isn't a clearance for a free for all or going as low as you can go. You are still on an IFR flight plan and must stay on the filed route. The ONLY thing that does for you is allow you to stay clear of clouds. You must still comply with VFR visibility, distance from cloud criteria, and the minimum IFR altitudes. This last one is the biggy. It takes the burden off the controller to separate you from the ground with minimum IFR separation (1000' AGL or 2000' AGL in mountainous terrain), and other IFR aircraft unless in class B or C airspace. You are still required to comply with this altitude. I saw this as a controller on many many occasions, and most controllers don't know what the pilot rules are (and don't really care), so if they tell you go as low as you want, that is not a clearance to break the FAR's. You can be violated if you do this. (I've seen it happen). I'd really hate for someone to get a violation on their record because they didn't understand the rules. If you want to fly right right over Mt Rainier (less than 2000' AGL) and think you can do it VFR on top, you better be canceling IFR first. There are waivers that the ATC facilities can get such as when flying over Pikes Peak just West of Colorado Springs. The MIA (minimum IFR altitude) is 16000'MSL. This is less than 2000 AGL, but ATC has authorization to do this. Pilots don't have this authorization via a VFR on top clearance. In this case you would have to be at least 16115' MSL (2000'AGL). Another point I'd like to bring up that goes along with this discussion is that you are not allowed to go Direct using GPS (or other RNAV equipment such as INS) in any controlled airspace unless you are receiving radar monitoring(except when within navaid limitations and going direct to a navaid). What this means is that unless you are in radar contact, you cannot go direct. I'm sure this has happened to some of you and you were frustrated by why you had to stay on an airway. This is a huge issue in Alaska since there are so many non radar areas and so many remote airports. Alaska had a waiver to be able to do this, but it expired last month. I'm working on this very issue right now with flight standards and all the other affected offices here at the FAA, to allow GPS direct from airport to airport in non radar situations. Once this is approved, we will hopefully be able to apply it in the lower 48 and you will all be going direct to your destination a lot more frequently. As a side note, a loophole exists that allows you to go direct in non radar if you are on a VFR on top clearance, so keep that in mind and use the rules to your advantage when possible. Ron Galbraith >i used to fly in this area of the Cascades all the time. If you are on an ifr flight plan with a "vfr on top" clearance, ATC will let you go as low as you want. One time, when on a VFR on top clearance near Mt Ranier, I asked how low i could go....they said "you can taxi from there to here if you want". > -- For archives and unsub http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.html ____________________________________ Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? _Read reviews on AOL Autos_ (http://autos.aol.com/cars-Volkswagen-Jetta-2009/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00030000000007) . **************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/cars-Volkswagen-Jetta-2009/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00030000000007 ) -------------------------------1219013664 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Ron,
 
Thanks, I'll try to be patient.
 
Scott
 
In a message dated 8/17/2008 12:41:09 P.M. Central Daylight Time,=20 cfi@instructor.net writes:
<= FONT=20 style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size= =3D2>Well,=20 actually there are two separate issues.   The first one is to al= low=20 you to use GPS for your primary navigation using the WAAS cert. =20 Secondly, the ATC manuals are not and have not kept up with the rest of th= e=20 RNAV aircraft rules.  The 7110.65 (ATC manual chapter 4) does not car= e=20 about what type navigation you are using (WAAS or non WAAS) when going dir= ect,=20 radar monitoring is required.   That is the issue that I'm worki= ng=20 on right now at FAA headquarters.  I'd sure like to think this can be= =20 complete this year, but the FAA works at the speed of light....um I mean=20 dark.  (is dark slow?).   I would anticipate these rules in= =20 place in Alaska within a month, then sometime after that in the CONUS.&nbs= p;=20 ERAM is taking a lot of our time at the moment too which is the En Rou= te=20 Automation Modernization system for all the ARTCC's.  (replaceme= nt=20 of all hardware and software exept displays).   First facility t= hat=20 will start using it will take place in Februrary at Salt Lake City=20 ARTCC.  Nothing changes for the pilots, but the controllers will have= =20 many more new tools. 

Ron Galbraith

-----=20 Original Message -----
From: Sky2high@aol.com
To:=20 lml@lancaironline.net
Subject: [LML] Re: VFR on top
Date: Sun, 17=20= Aug=20 2008 12:12:23 -0400

Ron,
 
You have only caused greater confusion for me. 
 
I understood that even with an approach certified GPS (say, an old=20 Garmin 430 filed as a /G) it could not be used as a primary navigation=20 device outside of radar coverage areas.  Then along came WAAS. = ;=20 After a certain FAA approved software level, a Garmin 430W (again still=20 filed as /G) was now certified for sole navigation anywhere in the=20 continental US as long as there was appropriate WAAS coverage and the he= ll=20 with "radar coverage" (not much in mountainous regions anyway).&nbs= p;=20
 
I thought I could go direct anywhere with such a system (ATC=20 permitting) as that is what various public documents have led me to= =20 believe.
 
Grayhawk
 
PS What use are those sloppy low altitude airways anyway=20 (deviations and deviants being what they are)?
 
In a message dated 8/15/2008 3:26:23 P.M. Central Daylight Time,=20 cfi@instructor.net writes:
I'd=20 like to clarify a misconception about flying VFR on top or OTP as the=20 controller sees it in his flight plan and on the data block on the=20 scope.  This clearance isn't a clearance for a free for all or go= ing=20 as low as you can go.  You are still on an IFR flight plan and mu= st=20 stay on the filed route.  The ONLY thing that does for you is all= ow=20 you to stay clear of clouds.  You must still comply with VFR=20 visibility, distance from cloud criteria, and the minimum IFR=20 altitudes.  This last one is the biggy.  It takes the burden= off=20 the controller to separate you from the ground with minimum IFR separa= tion=20 (1000' AGL or 2000' AGL in mountainous terrain), and other IFR aircraf= t=20 unless in class B or C airspace.  You are still required to compl= y=20 with this altitude.   I saw this as a controller on many man= y=20 occasions, and most controllers don't know what the pilot rules are (a= nd=20 don't really care), so if they tell you go as low as you want, that is= not=20 a clearance to break the FAR's.  You can be violated if you do th= is.=20 (I've seen it happen).   I'd really hate for someone to get=20= a=20 violation on their record because they didn't understand the rules.&nb= sp;=20 If you want to fly right right over Mt Rainier (less than 2000' AGL) a= nd=20 think you can do it VFR on top, you better be canceling IFR=20 first.   There are waivers that the ATC facilities can get s= uch=20 as when flying over Pikes Peak just West of Colorado Springs.  Th= e=20 MIA (minimum IFR altitude) is 16000'MSL.  This is less than 2000=20= AGL,=20 but ATC has authorization to do this.  Pilots don't have this=20 authorization via a VFR on top clearance.  In this case you would= =20 have to be at least 16115' MSL (2000'AGL).
    Anoth= er=20 point I'd like to bring up that goes along with this discussion is tha= t=20 you are not allowed to go Direct using GPS (or other RNAV equipment su= ch=20 as INS) in any controlled airspace unless you are receiving radar=20 monitoring(except when within navaid limitations and going direct to a= =20 navaid).  What this means is that unless you are in radar contact= ,=20 you cannot go direct.  I'm sure this has happened to some of you=20= and=20 you were frustrated by why you had to stay on an airway.  This is= a=20 huge issue in Alaska since there are so many non radar areas and so ma= ny=20 remote airports.  Alaska had a waiver to be able to do this, but=20= it=20 expired last month.  I'm working on this very issue right now wit= h=20 flight standards and all the other affected offices here at the FAA, t= o=20 allow GPS direct from airport to airport in non radar situations. = ;=20 Once this is approved, we will hopefully be able to apply it in the lo= wer=20 48 and you will all be going direct to your destination a lot more=20 frequently.  As a side note, a loophole exists that allows you to= go=20 direct in non radar if you are on a VFR on top clearance, so keep that= in=20 mind and use the rules to your advantage when possible. =20


Ron Galbraith


 
>i used to fly in th= is=20 area of the Cascades all the time.  If you are on an ifr flight p= lan=20 with a "vfr on top" clearance, ATC will let you go as low as you=20 want.  One time, when on a VFR on top clearance near Mt Ranier,&n= bsp;=20 I asked how low i could go....they said "you can taxi from there to he= re=20 if you want".
>



--
For archives and unsub=20 http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.html



Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL=20 Autos.

<= BR>

Looking for a car that's sporty, fun an= d fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos.
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