X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 17:57:32 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from mta21.charter.net ([216.33.127.81] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.3) with ESMTP id 2927064 for lml@lancaironline.net; Sat, 17 May 2008 22:37:09 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=216.33.127.81; envelope-from=farnsworth@charter.net Received: from aarprv06.charter.net ([10.20.200.76]) by mta21.charter.net (InterMail vM.7.08.03.00 201-2186-126-20070710) with ESMTP id <20080518023624.HGTB23078.mta21.charter.net@aarprv06.charter.net> for ; Sat, 17 May 2008 22:36:24 -0400 Received: from Farnsworth ([75.139.158.86]) by aarprv06.charter.net with ESMTP id <20080518023623.CVKR3194.aarprv06.charter.net@Farnsworth> for ; Sat, 17 May 2008 22:36:23 -0400 From: "farnsworth" X-Original-To: "'Lancair Mailing List'" Subject: RE: [LML] Re: Turn back to the Airport after engine failure X-Original-Date: Sat, 17 May 2008 22:41:41 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0128_01C8B86F.2D4EF8D0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 In-Reply-To: Thread-Index: Aci4ifiLurRXpBPURs2CV67dgFB+LQABrWuA X-Original-Message-Id: <20080518023623.CVKR3194.aarprv06.charter.net@Farnsworth> X-Chzlrs: 0 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0128_01C8B86F.2D4EF8D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit _____ From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Taylor, David Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2008 9:52 PM To: lml@lancaironline.net Subject: [LML] Re: Turn back to the Airport after engine failure Amen to Bill Kenedy. You make a good point. All Lancair pilots need to practice and do training on non-powered flight to a landing and very few do it. The results are fatalities on a regular basis. If you have not pulled the power on your Lancair and glided it down to a landing and you don't practice this regularily you are an accident waiting to happen. Remember, you need best glide speed (the book says 135 knots on a Legacy which is pretty close), and you need to fly the airplane and get the gear down land it and that's it. Don't worry about anything else! Practice it on a nice long runway if you like. Oh, and pull the prop out. This is critical. The glide ratio on the Legacy is about doubled with the prop pulled out. The Legacy actually glides pretty well like this - handles nicely and has a decent glide ratio and hence decent range without any power. You have plenty of time to decide where to land in an emergency. (You have all practiced and tested all this stuff right?) Dave t. Legacy 523x From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Bill Kennedy Sent: Friday, 05-16-2008 14:23 To: lml@lancaironline.net Subject: [LML] Re: Turn back to the Airport after engine failure You're right, the turn won't be successful started at 200' AGL. From 500' AGL (with fixed pitch prop and engine running in idle) you have enough time/energy to line up on the runway for a normal landing. My priorities are airspeed, continuous monitor; coordination, double check a couple of times; bank angle, comfortable, no burble (approx 60); watch for roll-out/reversal point; check configuration for landing. My guess is that most of the stall-spin events are caused, not by attempting to return to the departure runway, but by not allowing the aircraft to glide. Even "landing straight ahead" is going to result in a stall-spin, if the pilot won't let the plane glide. Even timid pilots can practice the transition from high-power climb to low/no power glide without risk. _____ To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Fri, 16 May 2008 08:20:13 -0400 From: Sky2high@aol.com Subject: [LML] Turn back to the Airport after engine failure Bill and Dom, Attached is an EXCEL spreadsheet to calculate data about turns - just fill in the colored entry with the airspeed in Kts. Using Dom's scenario: At 100 Kts and a 60 degree banked turn, the turn rate is about 18 degrees per second or about 10 seconds to do a 180. If your prop was left in coarse pitch, the rate of descent is about 1500 fpm (100 KIAS is good enough since our Lancairs best glide is about 105, depending). In 10 seconds it will have descended 250 feet, 50 feet below the surface of the planet - Oh, and it will still be 500 feet off the runway centerline but the wreckage will be easy to find since it will be so close to the airport. Bill, your training may kill you by creating false hopes. Of course, you do practice with the engine turned off, don't you? Prop in coarse pitch? Grayhawk In a message dated 5/15/2008 1:27:58 P.M. Central Daylight Time, domcrain@tpg.com.au writes: OK Bill - You're on the take-off R/W length 1000 metres (3280'). You're at say, 200' passing 100 KIAS Gear is UP, Flaps retracted - engine dead cuts. Where to? I think your scenario is fine if you have a significant amount of breathing gas under, but then - can you still make the airfield? Your scenario is seriously debatable, I believe. Cheers mate Dom VH-CZJ -----Original Message----- From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Bill Kennedy Sent: Thursday, 15 May 2008 8:39 AM To: lml@lancaironline.net Subject: [LML] Re: Crash, fueling nozzles and training I practice these simulated engine failure turns from time to time. I'd far rather land on or parallel to the runway than in the whatever off the ends of the runway. There is a big difference between a maximum performance turn at 100 KIAS and a 60 degree bank turn. My experience suggests that the turn rate is so fast at max performance, that timing the rollout becomes a problem. Max performance puts you on the edge of a stall, so brain overload is a problem too. However, a 60 degree bank produces a very brisk turn rate without overtaxing my brain. I can still hold my 100KIAS and time my rollout perfectly. To reiterate: 1. Max performance turns at low altitude suck. 2. 60 degree bank turns are easy if you maintain your airspeed. 3. Practice, or don't plan to do it for real. The key things are to maintain your airspeed and keep the ball in the middle. Almost all say they'd land "straight ahead". Almost all attempt to return to the airport when it actually happens. The one's who don't practice often die. _____ Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food. ------=_NextPart_000_0128_01C8B86F.2D4EF8D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 

 

From: = Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Taylor, David
Sent: Saturday, May 17, = 2008 9:52 PM
To: = lml@lancaironline.net
Subject: [LML] Re: Turn = back to the Airport after engine failure

 

Amen to = Bill Kenedy.  You make a good point.  All Lancair pilots need to practice and do training on non-powered flight to a landing and very few do it.  = The results are fatalities on a regular basis.  =

 <= /o:p>

If you have = not pulled the power on your Lancair and glided it down to a landing and you = don’t practice this regularily you are an accident waiting to happen.  =

 <= /o:p>

Remember, = you need best glide speed (the book says 135 knots on a Legacy which is pretty = close), and you need to fly the airplane and get the gear down land it and = that’s it.  Don’t worry about anything else!  Practice it on a = nice long runway if you like. 

 <= /o:p>

Oh, and = pull the prop out.  This is critical.  The glide ratio on the Legacy is = about doubled with the prop pulled out.  The Legacy actually glides = pretty well like this – handles nicely and has a decent glide ratio and hence = decent range without any power.  You have plenty of time to decide where = to land in an emergency.  (You have all practiced and tested all this stuff right?)

 <= /o:p>

Dave = t.

Legacy = 523x

 <= /o:p>

From: = Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Bill Kennedy
Sent: Friday, 05-16-2008 = 14:23
To: = lml@lancaironline.net
Subject: [LML] Re: Turn = back to the Airport after engine failure

 

You're right, the turn won't be successful started = at 200' AGL. From 500' AGL (with fixed pitch prop and engine running in idle) = you have enough time/energy to line up on the runway for a normal landing. My = priorities are airspeed, continuous monitor; coordination, double check a couple of = times; bank angle, comfortable, no burble (approx 60); watch for = roll-out/reversal point; check configuration for landing.

My guess is that most of the stall-spin events are caused, not by = attempting to return to the departure runway, but by not allowing the aircraft to = glide. Even "landing straight ahead" is going to result in a stall-spin, = if the pilot won't let the plane glide. Even timid pilots can practice the = transition from high-power climb to low/no power glide without = risk.

 

To: = lml@lancaironline.net
Date: Fri, 16 May 2008 08:20:13 -0400
From: Sky2high@aol.com
Subject: [LML] Turn back to the Airport after engine failure

Bill and = Dom,

 

=

Attached is an = EXCEL spreadsheet to calculate data about turns - just fill in the colored entry with the = airspeed in Kts.

 

=

Using Dom's scenario: At 100 Kts = and a 60 degree banked turn, the turn rate is about 18 degrees per = second or about 10 seconds to do a 180.  If your prop was left in coarse = pitch, the rate of descent is about 1500 fpm (100 KIAS is good enough since our = Lancairs best glide is about 105, depending).  In 10 seconds it will = have descended 250 feet, 50 feet below the surface of the planet - Oh, = and it will still be 500 feet off the runway centerline but the wreckage will = be easy to find since it will be so close to the = airport.

 

=

Bill, your training may kill = you by creating false hopes.  Of course, you do practice with the engine = turned off, don't you? Prop in coarse pitch?

 

=

Grayhawk

 

=

In a message dated 5/15/2008 = 1:27:58 P.M. Central Daylight Time, domcrain@tpg.com.au = writes:

OK Bill – You’re on = the take-off  R/W length 1000 metres (3280’). You’re at = say, 200’ passing 100 KIAS Gear is UP, Flaps retracted – engine = dead cuts. Where to?

I think your scenario is fine if = you have a significant amount of breathing gas under, but then – can you = still make the airfield?

Your scenario is seriously = debatable, I believe.

Cheers mate

Dom

VH-CZJ

-----Original Message-----
From: Lancair Mailing = List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On = Behalf Of Bill Kennedy
Sent: Thursday, 15 May = 2008 8:39 AM
To: = lml@lancaironline.net
Subject: [LML] Re: Crash, = fueling nozzles and training

I practice these simulated engine failure turns from time to time. I'd far = rather land on or parallel to the runway than in the whatever off the ends of = the runway. There is a big difference between a maximum performance turn at = 100 KIAS and a 60 degree bank turn. My experience suggests that the turn = rate is so fast at max performance, that timing the rollout becomes a problem. Max performance puts you on the edge of a stall, so brain overload is a = problem too. However, a 60 degree bank produces a very brisk turn rate without = overtaxing my brain. I can still hold my 100KIAS and time my rollout perfectly.

To reiterate:
1. Max performance turns at low altitude suck.
2. 60 degree bank turns are easy if you maintain your airspeed.
3. Practice, or don't plan to do it for real. The key things are to = maintain your airspeed and keep the ball in the middle.

Almost all say they'd land "straight ahead". Almost all = attempt to return to the airport when it actually happens. The one's who don't = practice often die.

 

Wondering what's for Dinner = Tonight? = Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food.

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