X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 17:57:32 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from [64.12.143.99] (HELO imo-m11.mail.aol.com) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.3) with ESMTP id 2927565 for lml@lancaironline.net; Sun, 18 May 2008 09:48:45 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.12.143.99; envelope-from=VTAILJEFF@aol.com Received: from VTAILJEFF@aol.com by imo-m11.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v38_r9.4.) id q.c38.300ec604 (39332) for ; Sun, 18 May 2008 09:48:03 -0400 (EDT) From: VTAILJEFF@aol.com X-Original-Message-ID: X-Original-Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 09:48:02 EDT Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Turn back to the Airport after engine failure X-Original-To: lml@lancaironline.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1211118482" X-Mailer: Unknown sub 34 X-Spam-Flag: NO -------------------------------1211118482 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en As a flight instructor that teaches this maneuver in a IVP I can say that i= f=20 you are considering doing this below 1500' in a IV/ IVP you should go =20 practice this at altitude and reevaluate your decision.=20 =20 =20 In a message dated 5/17/2008 8:53:37 P.M. Central Daylight Time, =20 vtailjeff@aol.com writes: What kind of airplane?=20 From 500' AGL (with fixed pitch prop and engine running in idle) you have=20 enough time/energy to line up on the runway for a normal landing. =20 -----Original Message----- From: Bill Kennedy To: lml@lancaironline.net Sent: Fri, 16 May 2008 1:22 pm Subject: [LML] Re: Turn back to the Airport after engine failure =20 You're right, the turn won't be successful started at 200' AGL. From 500'=20 AGL (with fixed pitch prop and engine running in idle) you have enough=20 time/energy to line up on the runway for a normal landing. My priorities ar= e=20 airspeed, continuous monitor; coordination, double check a couple of times;= bank=20 angle, comfortable, no burble (approx 60); watch for roll-out/reversal poin= t;=20 check configuration for landing. My guess is that most of the stall-spin events are caused, not by attemptin= g=20 to return to the departure runway, but by not allowing the aircraft to=20 glide. Even "landing straight ahead" is going to result in a stall-spin, if= the=20 pilot won't let the plane glide. Even timid pilots can practice the transit= ion=20 from high-power climb to low/no power glide without risk. =20 ____________________________________ To: _lml@lancaironline.net_ (mailto:lml@lancaironline.net)=20 Date: Fri, 16 May 2008 08:20:13 -0400 From: _Sky2high@aol.com_ (mailto:Sky2high@aol.com)=20 Subject: [LML] Turn back to the Airport after engine failure Bill and Dom, =20 Attached is an EXCEL spreadsheet to calculate data about turns - just fill=20 in the colored entry with the airspeed in Kts. =20 Using Dom's scenario: At 100 Kts and a 60 degree banked turn, the turn rate= =20 is about 18 degrees per second or about 10 seconds to do a 180. If your pr= op=20 was left in coarse pitch, the rate of descent is about 1500 fpm (100 KIAS i= s=20 good enough since our Lancairs best glide is about 105, depending). In 10=20 seconds it will have descended 250 feet, 50 feet below the surface of the=20 planet - Oh, and it will still be 500 feet off the runway centerline but th= e=20 wreckage will be easy to find since it will be so close to the airport. =20 Bill, your training may kill you by creating false hopes. Of course, you d= o=20 practice with the engine turned off, don't you? Prop in coarse pitch? =20 Grayhawk =20 =20 In a message dated 5/15/2008 1:27:58 P.M. Central Daylight Time,=20 _domcrain@tpg.com.au_ (mailto:domcrain@tpg.com.au) writes: OK Bill =E2=80=93 You=E2=80=99re on the take-off R/W length 1000 metres (3= 280=E2=80=99). You=E2=80=99re=20 at say, 200=E2=80=99 passing 100 KIAS Gear is UP, Flaps retracted =E2=80= =93 engine dead cuts.=20 Where to? I think your scenario is fine if you have a significant amount of breathing= =20 gas under, but then =E2=80=93 can you still make the airfield? Your scenario is seriously debatable, I believe. Cheers mate Dom VH-CZJ -----Original Message----- From: Lancair Mailing List [_mailto:lml@lancaironline.net_=20 (mailto:lml@lancaironline.net?) ] On Behalf Of Bill Kennedy Sent: Thursday, 15 May 2008 8:39 AM To: _lml@lancaironline.net_ (mailto:lml@lancaironline.net)=20 Subject: [LML] Re: Crash, fueling nozzles and training I practice these simulated engine failure turns from time to time. I'd far=20 rather land on or parallel to the runway than in the whatever off the ends=20= of=20 the runway. There is a big difference between a maximum performance turn at= =20 100 KIAS and a 60 degree bank turn. My experience suggests that the turn ra= te=20 is so fast at max performance, that timing the rollout becomes a problem. M= ax=20 performance puts you on the edge of a stall, so brain overload is a proble= m=20 too. However, a 60 degree bank produces a very brisk turn rate without=20 overtaxing my brain. I can still hold my 100KIAS and time my rollout perfec= tly. To reiterate: 1. Max performance turns at low altitude suck. 2. 60 degree bank turns are easy if you maintain your airspeed. 3. Practice, or don't plan to do it for real. The key things are to maintai= n=20 your airspeed and keep the ball in the middle. Almost all say they'd land "straight ahead". Almost all attempt to return t= o=20 the airport when it actually happens. The one's who don't practice often =20 die. =20 ____________________________________ Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? _Get new twists on family favorites at= =20 AOL Food_ (http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=3Daolfod00030000000001)=20= . =3D=20 =20 ____________________________________ Plan your next roadtrip with _MapQuest.com_=20 (http://www.mapquest.com/?ncid=3Dmpqmap00030000000004) : America's #1 Mappin= g Site.=20 **************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family=20 favorites at AOL Food. =20 (http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=3Daolfod00030000000001) -------------------------------1211118482 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en
As a flight instructor that teaches this maneuver in a IVP I can s= ay=20 that if you are considering doing this below 1500' in a IV/ IVP you should g= o=20 practice this at altitude and reevaluate your decision.
 
In a message dated 5/17/2008 8:53:37 P.M. Central Daylight Time,=20 vtailjeff@aol.com writes:
<= FONT=20 style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size= =3D2>What=20 kind of airplane?
From=20= 500'=20 AGL (with fixed pitch prop and engine running in idle) you have enough=20 time/energy to line up on the runway for a normal landing.=20



-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Kennedy=20 <bill_kennedy_3@hotmail.com>
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Sent: F= ri,=20 16 May 2008 1:22 pm
Subject: [LML] Re: Turn back to the Airport after=20 engine failure

You're right, the turn won't be successful= =20 started at 200' AGL. From 500' AGL (with fixed pitch prop and engine runni= ng=20 in idle) you have enough time/energy to line up on the runway for a normal= =20 landing. My priorities are airspeed, continuous monitor; coordination, dou= ble=20 check a couple of times; bank angle, comfortable, no burble (approx 60); w= atch=20 for roll-out/reversal point; check configuration for landing.

My gu= ess=20 is that most of the stall-spin events are caused, not by attempting to ret= urn=20 to the departure runway, but by not allowing the aircraft to glide. Even=20 "landing straight ahead" is going to result in a stall-spin, if the pilot=20 won't let the plane glide. Even timid pilots can practice the transition f= rom=20 high-power climb to low/no power glide without risk.



To: lml@lancaironline.net
Date:= Fri,=20 16 May 2008 08:20:13 -0400
From: Sky2high@aol.com
Subject: [LML]=20= Turn=20 back to the Airport after engine failure

Bill and Dom,
 
Attached is an EXCEL spreadsheet to calculate data about turns= -=20 just fill in the colored entry with the airspeed in Kts.
 
Using Dom's scenario: At 100 Kts and a 60 degree banked turn, the=20 turn rate is about 18 degrees per second or about 10 seconds t= o do=20 a 180.  If your prop was left in coarse pitch, the rate of descent=20= is=20 about 1500 fpm (100 KIAS is good enough since our Lancairs best glide is= =20 about 105, depending).  In 10 seconds it will have descended 2= 50=20 feet, 50 feet below the surface of the planet - Oh, and it will sti= ll=20 be 500 feet off the runway centerline but the wreckage will be easy to f= ind=20 since it will be so close to the airport.
 
Bill, your training may kill you by creating false hopes. = ; Of=20 course, you do practice with the engine turned off, don't you? Prop in=20 coarse pitch?
 
Grayhawk
 
In a message dated 5/15/2008 1:27:58 P.M. Central Daylight Time, domcrain@tpg.com.au writes:
OK Bill =E2=80= =93 You=E2=80=99re on the=20 take-off  R/W length 1000 metres (3280=E2=80=99). You=E2=80=99re=20= at say, 200=E2=80=99 passing=20 100 KIAS Gear is UP, Flaps retracted =E2=80=93 engine dead cuts. Where= =20 to?
I think your sce= nario is=20 fine if you have a significant amount of breathing gas under, but then= =E2=80=93=20 can you still make the airfield?
Your scenario is= =20 seriously debatable, I believe.
Cheers=20 mate
Dom
VH-CZJ
-----Original=20 Message-----
From:=20 Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net]=20 On Behalf Of Bill=20 Kennedy
Sent: Thurs= day,=20 15 May 2008 8:39 AM
To:= =20 lml@lancaironline.net
= Subject: [LML] Re: Crash, fueli= ng=20 nozzles and training
I practi= ce these=20 simulated engine failure turns from time to time. I'd far rather land=20= on=20 or parallel to the runway than in the whatever off the ends of the run= way.=20 There is a big difference between a maximum performance turn at 100 KI= AS=20 and a 60 degree bank turn. My experience suggests that the turn rate i= s so=20 fast at max performance, that timing the rollout becomes a problem. Ma= x=20 performance puts you on the edge of a stall, so brain overload is a=20 problem too. However, a 60 degree bank produces a very brisk turn rate= =20 without overtaxing my brain. I can still hold my 100KIAS and time my=20 rollout perfectly.

To reiterate:
1. Max performance turns at= low=20 altitude suck.
2. 60 degree bank turns are easy if you maintain you= r=20 airspeed.
3. Practice, or don't plan to do it for real. The key thi= ngs=20 are to maintain your airspeed and keep the ball in the=20 middle.

Almost all say they'd land "straight ahead". Almost all= =20 attempt to return to the airport when it actually happens. The one's w= ho=20 don't practice often=20 die.



Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL=20 Food.
=3D



Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family= favorites at AOL Food.
-------------------------------1211118482--