X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Sat, 17 May 2008 21:52:24 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from imo-m23.mx.aol.com ([64.12.137.4] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.3) with ESMTP id 2925267 for lml@lancaironline.net; Fri, 16 May 2008 15:03:53 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.12.137.4; envelope-from=VTAILJEFF@aol.com Received: from VTAILJEFF@aol.com by imo-m23.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v38_r9.4.) id q.d0d.324eea5a (37130) for ; Fri, 16 May 2008 15:03:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from MBLK-M05 (mblk-m05.mblk.aol.com [64.12.136.38]) by cia-ma02.mx.aol.com (v121.5) with ESMTP id MAILCIAMA024-910a482dda6c27e; Fri, 16 May 2008 15:03:08 -0400 References: X-Original-To: lml@lancaironline.net Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Turn back to the Airport after engine failure X-Original-Date: Fri, 16 May 2008 15:03:08 -0400 X-AOL-IP: 75.33.127.180 In-Reply-To: X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI MIME-Version: 1.0 From: vtailjeff@aol.com X-MB-Message-Type: User Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="--------MB_8CA859E9CF38366_4AC_335D_MBLK-M05.sysops.aol.com" X-Mailer: AOL Webmail 36743-STANDARD Received: from 75.33.127.180 by MBLK-M05.sysops.aol.com (64.12.136.38) with HTTP (WebMailUI); Fri, 16 May 2008 15:03:08 -0400 X-Original-Message-Id: <8CA859E9C85D820-4AC-19D7@MBLK-M05.sysops.aol.com> X-Spam-Flag: NO ----------MB_8CA859E9CF38366_4AC_335D_MBLK-M05.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" What kind of airplane?=20 From 500' AGL (with fixed pitch prop and engine running in idle) you have en= ough time/energy to line up on the runway for a normal landing.=20 -----Original Message----- From: Bill Kennedy To: lml@lancaironline.net Sent: Fri, 16 May 2008 1:22 pm Subject: [LML] Re: Turn back to the Airport after engine failure You're right, the turn won't be successful started at 200' AGL. From 500' AG= L (with fixed pitch prop and engine running in idle) you have enough time/en= ergy to line up on the runway for a normal landing. My priorities are airspe= ed, continuous monitor; coordination, double check a couple of times; bank a= ngle, comfortable, no burble (approx 60); watch for roll-out/reversal point;= check configuration for landing. My guess is that most of the stall-spin events are caused, not by attempting= to return to the departure runway, but by not allowing the aircraft to glid= e. Even "landing straight ahead" is going to result in a stall-spin, if the=20= pilot won't let the plane glide. Even timid pilots can practice the transiti= on from high-power climb to low/no power glide without risk. To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Fri, 16 May 2008 08:20:13 -0400 From: Sky2high@aol.com Subject: [LML] Turn back to the Airport after engine failure Bill and Dom, =C2=A0 Attached is an EXCEL=C2=A0spreadsheet to calculate data about turns - just f= ill in the colored entry with the airspeed in Kts. =C2=A0 Using Dom's scenario: At 100 Kts and a 60 degree banked turn, the turn=C2= =A0rate is about=C2=A018 degrees per second or about 10 seconds to do a 180.= =C2=A0 If your prop was left in coarse pitch, the rate of descent is about 1= 500 fpm (100 KIAS is good enough since our Lancairs best glide is about 105,= depending).=C2=A0 In 10 seconds=C2=A0it will have descended 250 feet, 50 fe= et below the surface of the planet - Oh, and=C2=A0it will still be 500 feet=20= off the runway centerline but the wreckage will be easy to find since it wil= l be so close to the airport. =C2=A0 Bill, your training=C2=A0may kill you by creating false hopes.=C2=A0 Of cour= se, you do practice with the engine turned off, don't you? Prop in coarse pi= tch? =C2=A0 Grayhawk =C2=A0 In a message dated 5/15/2008 1:27:58 P.M. Central Daylight Time, domcrain@tp= g.com.au writes: OK Bill =E2=80=93 You=E2=80=99re on the take-off=C2=A0 R/W length 1000 metre= s (3280=E2=80=99). You=E2=80=99re at say, 200=E2=80=99 passing 100 KIAS Gear= is UP, Flaps retracted =E2=80=93 engine dead cuts. Where to? I think your scenario is fine if you have a significant amount of breathing=20= gas under, but then =E2=80=93 can you still make the airfield? Your scenario is seriously debatable, I believe. Cheers mate Dom VH-CZJ -----Original Message----- From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Bill=20= Kennedy Sent: Thursday, 15 May 2008 8:39 AM To: lml@lancaironline.net Subject: [LML] Re: Crash, fueling nozzles and training I practice these simulated engine failure turns from time to time. I'd far r= ather land on or parallel to the runway than in the whatever off the ends of= the runway. There is a big difference between a maximum performance turn at= 100 KIAS and a 60 degree bank turn. My experience suggests that the turn ra= te is so fast at max performance, that timing the rollout becomes a problem.= Max performance puts you on the edge of a stall, so brain overload is a pro= blem too. However, a 60 degree bank produces a very brisk turn rate without=20= overtaxing my brain. I can still hold my 100KIAS and time my rollout perfect= ly. To reiterate: 1. Max performance turns at low altitude suck. 2. 60 degree bank turns are easy if you maintain your airspeed. 3. Practice, or don't plan to do it for real. The key things are to maintain= your airspeed and keep the ball in the middle. Almost all say they'd land "straight ahead". Almost all attempt to return to= the airport when it actually happens. The one's who don't practice often di= e. Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at A= OL Food. =3D=20 ----------MB_8CA859E9CF38366_4AC_335D_MBLK-M05.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" What kind of airplane?
From 50= 0' AGL (with fixed pitch prop and engine running in idle) you have enough ti= me/energy to line up on the runway for a normal landing.



-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Kennedy <bill_kennedy_3@hotmail.com>
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Sent: Fri, 16 May 2008 1:22 pm
Subject: [LML] Re: Turn back to the Airport after engine failure

You're right, the turn won't be successful s= tarted at 200' AGL. From 500' AGL (with fixed pitch prop and engine running=20= in idle) you have enough time/energy to line up on the runway for a normal l= anding. My priorities are airspeed, continuous monitor; coordination, double= check a couple of times; bank angle, comfortable, no burble (approx 60); wa= tch for roll-out/reversal point; check configuration for landing.

My guess is that most of the stall-spin events are caused, not by attempting= to return to the departure runway, but by not allowing the aircraft to glid= e. Even "landing straight ahead" is going to result in a stall-spin, if the=20= pilot won't let the plane glide. Even timid pilots can practice the transiti= on from high-power climb to low/no power glide without risk.



To: lml@lancaironline.net
Date: Fri, 16 May 2008 08:20:13 -0400
From: Sky2high@aol.com
Subject: [LML] Turn back to the Airport after engine failure

Bill and Dom,
 
Attached is an EXCEL spreadsheet to calculate data about turns - j= ust fill in the colored entry with the airspeed in Kts.
 
Using Dom's scenario: At 100 Kts and a 60 degree banked turn, the turn&= nbsp;rate is about 18 degrees per second or about 10 seconds to do a 18= 0.  If your prop was left in coarse pitch, the rate of descent is about= 1500 fpm (100 KIAS is good enough since our Lancairs best glide is about 10= 5, depending).  In 10 seconds it will have descended 250 feet, 50=20= feet below the surface of the planet - Oh, and it will still be 500 fee= t off the runway centerline but the wreckage will be easy to find since it w= ill be so close to the airport.
 
Bill, your training may kill you by creating false hopes.  Of= course, you do practice with the engine turned off, don't you? Prop in coar= se pitch?
 
Grayhawk
 
In a message dated 5/15/2008 1:27:58 P.M. Central Daylight Time, domcrain@tpg.com.au writes:
OK Bill =E2=80=93 You=E2= =80=99re on the take-off  R/W length 1000 metres (3280=E2=80=99). You= =E2=80=99re at say, 200=E2=80=99 passing 100 KIAS Gear is UP, Flaps retracte= d =E2=80=93 engine dead cuts. Where to?
I think your scenario is f= ine if you have a significant amount of breathing gas under, but then =E2= =80=93 can you still make the airfield?
Your scenario is seriously= debatable, I believe.
Cheers mate<= /div>
Dom
VH-CZJ
-----Original Message-----
From: Lancair Mailing List [= mailto:lml@lancaironline.net]=20= On Behalf Of Bill Kennedy Sent: Thursday, 15 May 2008=20= 8:39 AM
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Subject: [LML] Re: Crash, fu= eling nozzles and training
I practice these= simulated engine failure turns from time to time. I'd far rather land on or= parallel to the runway than in the whatever off the ends of the runway. The= re is a big difference between a maximum performance turn at 100 KIAS and a=20= 60 degree bank turn. My experience suggests that the turn rate is so fast at= max performance, that timing the rollout becomes a problem. Max performance= puts you on the edge of a stall, so brain overload is a problem too. Howeve= r, a 60 degree bank produces a very brisk turn rate without overtaxing my br= ain. I can still hold my 100KIAS and time my rollout perfectly.

To reiterate:
1. Max performance turns at low altitude suck.
2. 60 degree bank turns are easy if you maintain your airspeed.
3. Practice, or don't plan to do it for real. The key things are to maintain= your airspeed and keep the ball in the middle.

Almost all say they'd land "straight ahead". Almost all attempt to return to= the airport when it actually happens. The one's who don't practice often di= e.



Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favo= rites at AOL Food.
=3D
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