X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Fri, 16 May 2008 08:20:13 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from [64.12.143.100] (HELO imo-m12.mail.aol.com) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.3) with ESMTP id 2924259 for lml@lancaironline.net; Thu, 15 May 2008 23:22:17 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.12.143.100; envelope-from=Sky2high@aol.com Received: from Sky2high@aol.com by imo-m12.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v38_r9.4.) id q.c59.2f818da5 (29678) for ; Thu, 15 May 2008 23:21:25 -0400 (EDT) From: Sky2high@aol.com X-Original-Message-ID: X-Original-Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 23:21:25 EDT Subject: Turn back to the Airport after engine failure X-Original-To: lml@lancaironline.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1210908085" X-Mailer: Unknown sub 34 X-Spam-Flag: NO -------------------------------1210908085 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en Bill and Dom, =20 Attached is an EXCEL spreadsheet to calculate data about turns - just fill=20 in the colored entry with the airspeed in Kts. =20 Using Dom's scenario: At 100 Kts and a 60 degree banked turn, the turn rate= =20 is about 18 degrees per second or about 10 seconds to do a 180. If your pr= op=20 was left in coarse pitch, the rate of descent is about 1500 fpm (100 KIAS i= s=20 good enough since our Lancairs best glide is about 105, depending). In 10=20 seconds it will have descended 250 feet, 50 feet below the surface of the=20 planet - Oh, and it will still be 500 feet off the runway centerline but th= e=20 wreckage will be easy to find since it will be so close to the airport. =20 Bill, your training may kill you by creating false hopes. Of course, you d= o=20 practice with the engine turned off, don't you? Prop in coarse pitch? =20 Grayhawk =20 =20 In a message dated 5/15/2008 1:27:58 P.M. Central Daylight Time, =20 domcrain@tpg.com.au writes: OK Bill =E2=80=93 You=E2=80=99re on the take-off R/W length 1000 metres (3= 280=E2=80=99). You=E2=80=99re=20 at say, 200=E2=80=99 passing 100 KIAS Gear is UP, Flaps retracted =E2=80= =93 engine dead cuts.=20 Where to?=20 I think your scenario is fine if you have a significant amount of breathing= =20 gas under, but then =E2=80=93 can you still make the airfield?=20 Your scenario is seriously debatable, I believe.=20 Cheers mate=20 Dom=20 VH-CZJ=20 -----Original Message----- From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Bill= =20 Kennedy Sent: Thursday, 15 May 2008 8:39 AM To: lml@lancaironline.net Subject: [LML] Re: Crash, fueling nozzles and training=20 I practice these simulated engine failure turns from time to time. I'd far=20 rather land on or parallel to the runway than in the whatever off the ends=20= of=20 the runway. There is a big difference between a maximum performance turn at= =20 100 KIAS and a 60 degree bank turn. My experience suggests that the turn ra= te=20 is so fast at max performance, that timing the rollout becomes a problem. M= ax=20 performance puts you on the edge of a stall, so brain overload is a problem= =20 too. However, a 60 degree bank produces a very brisk turn rate without=20 overtaxing my brain. I can still hold my 100KIAS and time my rollout perfec= tly. To reiterate: 1. Max performance turns at low altitude suck. 2. 60 degree bank turns are easy if you maintain your airspeed. 3. Practice, or don't plan to do it for real. The key things are to maintai= n=20 your airspeed and keep the ball in the middle. Almost all say they'd land "straight ahead". Almost all attempt to return t= o=20 the airport when it actually happens. The one's who don't practice often =20 die. **************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family=20 favorites at AOL Food. =20 (http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=3Daolfod00030000000001) -------------------------------1210908085 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en
Bill and Dom,
 
Attached is an EXCEL spreadsheet to calculate data about turns - j= ust=20 fill in the colored entry with the airspeed in Kts.
 
Using Dom's scenario: At 100 Kts and a 60 degree banked turn, the=20 turn rate is about 18 degrees per second or about 10 seconds to do= a=20 180.  If your prop was left in coarse pitch, the rate of descent is abo= ut=20 1500 fpm (100 KIAS is good enough since our Lancairs best glide is about 105= ,=20 depending).  In 10 seconds it will have descended 250 feet, 50 fee= t=20 below the surface of the planet - Oh, and it will still be 500 feet off= the=20 runway centerline but the wreckage will be easy to find since it will be so=20 close to the airport.
 
Bill, your training may kill you by creating false hopes.  Of= =20 course, you do practice with the engine turned off, don't you? Prop in coars= e=20 pitch?
 
Grayhawk
 
In a message dated 5/15/2008 1:27:58 P.M. Central Daylight Time,=20 domcrain@tpg.com.au writes:
<= FONT=20 style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size= =3D2>

= OK Bill =E2=80=93 You=E2=80=99re on= the take-off =20 R/W length 1000 metres (3280=E2=80=99). You=E2=80=99re at say, 200=E2=80= =99 passing 100 KIAS Gear is=20 UP, Flaps retracted =E2=80=93 engine dead cuts. Where to?

= I think your scenario is fine if yo= u have=20 a significant amount of breathing gas under, but then =E2=80=93 can you st= ill make the=20 airfield?

= Your scenario is seriously debatabl= e, I=20 believe.

= Cheers mate

= Dom

= VH-CZJ

-----Original=20 Message-----
From: Lanc= air=20 Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Bill Kennedy
Sent: Thursday, 15 May 2008 8:39=20 AM
To:=20 lml@lancaironline.net
Subject: [LML] Re: Crash, fueling n= ozzles=20 and training

I practice these simulated=20= engine=20 failure turns from time to time. I'd far rather land on or parallel to the= =20 runway than in the whatever off the ends of the runway. There is a big=20 difference between a maximum performance turn at 100 KIAS and a 60 degree=20= bank=20 turn. My experience suggests that the turn rate is so fast at max performa= nce,=20 that timing the rollout becomes a problem. Max performance puts you on the= =20 edge of a stall, so brain overload is a problem too. However, a 60 degree=20= bank=20 produces a very brisk turn rate without overtaxing my brain. I can still h= old=20 my 100KIAS and time my rollout perfectly.

To reiterate:
1. Max=20 performance turns at low altitude suck.
2. 60 degree bank turns are eas= y if=20 you maintain your airspeed.
3. Practice, or don't plan to do it for rea= l.=20 The key things are to maintain your airspeed and keep the ball in the=20 middle.

Almost all say they'd land "straight ahead". Almost all att= empt=20 to return to the airport when it actually happens. The one's who don't=20 practice often=20 die.




Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new=20= twists on family favorites at AOL Food.
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