X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 21:40:21 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from imo-m24.mx.aol.com ([64.12.137.5] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.3) with ESMTP id 2923916 for lml@lancaironline.net; Thu, 15 May 2008 17:43:40 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.12.137.5; envelope-from=VTAILJEFF@aol.com Received: from VTAILJEFF@aol.com by imo-m24.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v38_r9.4.) id q.c35.33ac4e79 (37047) for ; Thu, 15 May 2008 17:42:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from MBLK-M05 (mblk-m05.mblk.aol.com [64.12.136.38]) by cia-db03.mx.aol.com (v121.5) with ESMTP id MAILCIADB035-90b7482cae621c7; Thu, 15 May 2008 17:42:59 -0400 References: X-Original-To: lml@lancaironline.net Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Crash, fueling nozzles and training X-Original-Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 17:42:58 -0400 X-AOL-IP: 75.33.127.180 In-Reply-To: X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI MIME-Version: 1.0 From: vtailjeff@aol.com X-MB-Message-Type: User Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="--------MB_8CA84EBC6DA3FFC_138C_2A95_MBLK-M05.sysops.aol.com" X-Mailer: AOL Webmail 36743-STANDARD Received: from 75.33.127.180 by MBLK-M05.sysops.aol.com (64.12.136.38) with HTTP (WebMailUI); Thu, 15 May 2008 17:42:58 -0400 X-Original-Message-Id: <8CA84EBC68209B3-138C-1591@MBLK-M05.sysops.aol.com> X-Spam-Flag: NO ----------MB_8CA84EBC6DA3FFC_138C_2A95_MBLK-M05.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Have you ever done it for real?=20 I practice these simulated engine failure turns from time to time. I'd far r= ather land on or parallel to the runway than in the whatever off the ends of= the runway. There is a big difference between a maximum performance turn at= 100 KIAS and a 60 degree bank turn. My experience suggests that the turn ra= te is so fast at max performance, that timing the rollout becomes a problem.= Max performance puts you on the edge of a stall, so brain overload is a pro= blem too. However, a 60 degree bank produces a very brisk turn rate without=20= overtaxing my brain. I can still hold my 100KIAS and time my rollout perfect= ly. -----Original Message----- From: Dominic V Crain To: lml@lancaironline.net Sent: Thu, 15 May 2008 1:27 pm Subject: [LML] Re: Crash, fueling nozzles and training OK Bill =E2=80=93 You=E2=80=99re on the take-off=C2=A0 R/W length 1000 metre= s (3280=E2=80=99). You=E2=80=99re at say, 200=E2=80=99 passing 100 KIAS Gear= is UP, Flaps retracted =E2=80=93 engine dead cuts. Where to? =C2=A0 I think your scenario is fine if you have a significant amount of breathing=20= gas under, but then =E2=80=93 can you still make the airfield? =C2=A0 Your scenario is seriously debatable, I believe. =C2=A0 Cheers mate =C2=A0 Dom =C2=A0 VH-CZJ =C2=A0 -----Original Message----- From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Bill=20= Kennedy Sent: Thursday, 15 May 2008 8:39 AM To: lml@lancaironline.net Subject: [LML] Re: Crash, fueling nozzles and training =C2=A0 I practice these simulated engine failure turns from time to time. I'd far r= ather land on or parallel to the runway than in the whatever off the ends of= the runway. There is a big difference between a maximum performance turn at= 100 KIAS and a 60 degree bank turn. My experience suggests that the turn ra= te is so fast at max performance, that timing the rollout becomes a problem.= Max performance puts you on the edge of a stall, so brain overload is a pro= blem too. However, a 60 degree bank produces a very brisk turn rate without=20= overtaxing my brain. I can still hold my 100KIAS and time my rollout perfect= ly. To reiterate: 1. Max performance turns at low altitude suck. 2. 60 degree bank turns are easy if you maintain your airspeed. 3. Practice, or don't plan to do it for real. The key things are to maintain= your airspeed and keep the ball in the middle. Almost all say they'd land "straight ahead". Almost all attempt to return to= the airport when it actually happens. The one's who don't practice often di= e. To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 11:35:42 -0400 From: tom.gourley@verizon.net Subject: [LML] Re: Crash, fueling nozzles and training "check this out for training..... http://www.aerobats.com/seminar_02-07.html=C2=A0" =C2=A0 I can't dispute the results shown in the video, but I gotta wonder.=C2=A0 I=20= understand that a steep bank with low airspeed results in a high turn rate,=20= i.e. completes the turn in the least amount of time,=C2=A0but it leaves no m= argin for error.=C2=A0 In a real engine out situation, high pucker factor, p= robably distractions, maybe some turbulence,=C2=A0lots of adrenaline, is=C2= =A0a 60 degree bank with the stick pulled back so that you're getting some s= tall buffeting really a good idea?=C2=A0 I don't think so;=C2=A0especially n= ot in a Lancair, and probably not in several other types of aircraft.=C2=A0=20= A few years ago I watched the pilot of a Mooney 231 attempt to make a steepl= y banked turn to a runway after loss of power at low altitude.=C2=A0 (Yes, i= t turned out to be fuel exhaustion.)=C2=A0 He was trying to turn a total of=20= 120 - 135 degrees.=C2=A0 He had turned about 90 degrees when the right wing=20= and nose dropped noticeably; a stall-spin entry.=C2=A0 He stopped=C2=A0the r= otation immediately=C2=A0with opposite rudder but was too low to fully=C2= =A0recover.=C2=A0 The impact was fatal.=C2=A0 I think an off airport landing= with the aircraft under control would always be better than an uncontrolled= descent. =C2=A0 Yes, I realize an AOA would help tremendously in this situation, assuming th= e pilot isn't completely paniced and is capable of flying the AOA accurately= .=C2=A0 Training and practice sounds like a good idea. =C2=A0 Tom Gourley =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ----------MB_8CA84EBC6DA3FFC_138C_2A95_MBLK-M05.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Have you ever done it for real?
I= practice these simulated engine failure turns from time to time. I'd far ra= ther land on or parallel to the runway than in the whatever off the ends of=20= the runway. There is a big difference between a maximum performance turn at=20= 100 KIAS and a 60 degree bank turn. My experience suggests that the turn rat= e is so fast at max performance, that timing the rollout becomes a problem.=20= Max performance puts you on the edge of a stall, so brain overload is a prob= lem too. However, a 60 degree bank produces a very brisk turn rate without o= vertaxing my brain. I can still hold my 100KIAS and time my rollout perfectl= y.



-----Original Message-----
From: Dominic V Crain <domcrain@tpg.com.au>
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Sent: Thu, 15 May 2008 1:27 pm
Subject: [LML] Re: Crash, fueling nozzles and training

= OK Bill =E2=80=93 You=E2=80=99r= e on the take-off  R/W length 1000 metres (3280=E2=80=99). You=E2=80= =99re at say, 200=E2=80=99 passing 100 KIAS Gear is UP, Flaps retracted =E2= =80=93 engine dead cuts. Where to?
=  
= I think your scenario is fine i= f you have a significant amount of breathing gas under, but then =E2=80=93 c= an you still make the airfield?
=  
= Your scenario is seriously deba= table, I believe.
=  
= Cheers mate
=  
= Dom
=  
= VH-CZJ
=  
-----Original Mess= age-----
From: Lancair Mailing List [= mailto:lml@lancaironline.net]=20= On Behalf Of Bill Kennedy Sent: Thursday, 15 May 2008=20= 8:39 AM
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Subject: [LML] Re: Crash, fu= eling nozzles and training
 
I practice these s= imulated engine failure turns from time to time. I'd far rather land on or p= arallel to the runway than in the whatever off the ends of the runway. There= is a big difference between a maximum performance turn at 100 KIAS and a 60= degree bank turn. My experience suggests that the turn rate is so fast at m= ax performance, that timing the rollout becomes a problem. Max performance p= uts you on the edge of a stall, so brain overload is a problem too. However,= a 60 degree bank produces a very brisk turn rate without overtaxing my brai= n. I can still hold my 100KIAS and time my rollout perfectly.

To reiterate:
1. Max performance turns at low altitude suck.
2. 60 degree bank turns are easy if you maintain your airspeed.
3. Practice, or don't plan to do it for real. The key things are to maintain= your airspeed and keep the ball in the middle.

Almost all say they'd land "straight ahead". Almost all attempt to return to= the airport when it actually happens. The one's who don't practice often di= e.


To: lml@lancai= ronline.net
Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 11:35:42 -0400
From: tom.gourley@verizon.net=
Subject: [LML] Re: Crash, fueling nozzles and training
"check this out for training.= ....
http://www.aerobats.com/seminar_02-= 07.html "
 
I can't dispute the= results shown in the video, but I gotta wonder.  I understand that a s= teep bank with low airspeed results in a high turn rate, i.e. completes the=20= turn in the least amount of time, but it leaves no margin for error.&nb= sp; In a real engine out situation, high pucker factor, probably distraction= s, maybe some turbulence, lots of adrenaline, is a 60 degree bank=20= with the stick pulled back so that you're getting some stall buffeting reall= y a good idea?  I don't think so; especially not in a Lancair, and= probably not in several other types of aircraft.  A few years ago I wa= tched the pilot of a Mooney 231 attempt to make a steeply banked turn to a r= unway after loss of power at low altitude.  (Yes, it turned out to be f= uel exhaustion.)  He was trying to turn a total of 120 - 135 degrees.&n= bsp; He had turned about 90 degrees when the right wing and nose dropped not= iceably; a stall-spin entry.  He stopped the rotation immediately&= nbsp;with opposite rudder but was too low to fully recover.  The i= mpact was fatal.  I think an off airport landing with the aircraft unde= r control would always be better than an uncontrolled descent.=
 
Yes, I realize an A= OA would help tremendously in this situation, assuming the pilot isn't compl= etely paniced and is capable of flying the AOA accurately.  Training an= d practice sounds like a good idea.
 
Tom Gourley<= /FONT>
 
 
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