X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 18:47:25 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from wind.imbris.com ([216.18.130.7] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.1.12) with ESMTPS id 2315171 for lml@lancaironline.net; Thu, 06 Sep 2007 11:05:18 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=216.18.130.7; envelope-from=brent@regandesigns.com Received: from [192.168.1.100] (cbl-238-80.conceptcable.com [207.170.238.80] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by wind.imbris.com (8.12.11/8.12.11.S) with ESMTP id l86F4Vea087477; Thu, 6 Sep 2007 08:04:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brent@regandesigns.com) X-Original-Message-ID: <46E016FC.60201@regandesigns.com> X-Original-Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 08:04:28 -0700 From: Brent Regan User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-To: Clark Baker , Lancair Mailing List Subject: Re: Fwd: [LML] Re: Carbon Fiber Flox References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------040703010402050105020908" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------040703010402050105020908 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Carbon fiber flox is easy to make but of limited usefulness. It can be made simply by cutting cloth on the bias in small (2mm) increments. When mixed with epoxy it turns into a stringy wad that resembles something the cat would gack up. It is not lighter than cotton flox because cotton has a lower density than carbon (actually cotton has a lot of carbon and hydrogen in it). Strength will depend on matrix composition so there is no general answer here. One reason for using carbon flox is to better match the modulus of the substrate in areas where flexing is expected. On a IV-P, carbon flox would be useful in the cabin door hinge area and under the door latches (for leveling). IV-P door window failure is typically the result of the latch mounting system generating a stress concentration in the acrylic. Increasing the relative modulus of the door frame in this area allows more of the load to be carried by the frame, reducing the stress in the acrylic. If you need to fill a small cavity or cover a screw head I would use a series of carbon cloth patches and a "compression bandage" to minimize resin. Regards Brent Regan > >> From: "Clark Baker" > >> Date: September 4, 2007 10:55:09 PM EDT >> To: lml@lancaironline.net >> Subject: [LML] Re: Carbon Fiber Flox >> Reply-To: "Lancair Mailing List" > > >> >> I understand that there are 3 Legacy RG kit options: >> -std kit (material amount of e-glass) >> -my "all carbon", as in ALL carbon (obviously must be layed up in the >> Philippines that way) >> - the Reno race model, which is all carbon, plus extra bids from the >> windows back to handle the extra HP and speed. >> >> >> On 9/4/07, Alan Adamson > > wrote: >> >> Clark, I'm curious of a couple of things. >> >> Are there now 3 RG kits? >> >> - The standard one that is carbon on the outside skins, but the >> main spars and inside components are eglass (spar caps are still >> carbon) >> - The carbon upgraded one for 9K - were you get what in carbon? >> I'm going to assume the parts that are to be bonded in during the >> build. this would include the center console? The load pads? the >> rear tunnel? I'm also going to assume that the rear seatbacks, >> and bulkheads (firewall, etc) are still eglass? >> - Then the version that is *all* carbon, this includes all the >> spars, ribs, bulkheads, etc plus the items above and they usually >> do the "reno wrap" on this one (an extra wrap from the rear >> windows to the tail of 1 or 2 bids), and last I heard, it's *way* >> more than 9K work of upgrade costs and probably a significant >> lead time. >> >> As an aside, you can get milled carbon, but I suspect it's >> wickedly expensive and I have no idea if it's as structural as >> flox. If you are doing for weight reduction for as much flox as >> you'll use, I doubt it's significant. >> >> Just curious. >> Alan >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net >> ] On Behalf Of Clark Baker >> Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2007 7:06 PM >> To: lml@lancaironline.net >> Subject: [LML] Carbon Fiber Flox >> >> >> I will soon be starting my all carbon Legacy RG kit. After >> spending an extra $9k to have all the components made in carbon >> fiber (the standard Legacy RG kit has a material amount of >> e-glass), I started wondering if there was a carbon fiber >> equivalent for the traditional flox (milled cotton). There is a >> not insignificant amount of heavy flox in our aircraft. >> >> Has anyone used a carbon fiber flox and have any comments, or >> know of any suppliers? >> >> Regards, >> Clark Baker >> >> LNC2 360, 775hrs >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Clark Baker >> >> mobile: + 1 917 558 5567 >> home: + 1 646 964 4159 >> >> >> bakercdb@gmail.com > --------------040703010402050105020908 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Carbon fiber flox is easy to make but of limited usefulness. It can be made simply by cutting cloth on the bias in small (2mm) increments. When mixed with epoxy it turns into a stringy wad that resembles something the cat would gack up. It is not lighter than cotton flox because cotton has a lower density than carbon  (actually cotton has a lot of carbon and hydrogen in it). Strength will depend on matrix composition so there is no general answer here.

One reason for using carbon flox is to better match the modulus of the substrate in areas where flexing is expected. On a IV-P, carbon flox would be useful in the cabin door hinge area and under the door latches (for leveling).  IV-P door window failure is typically the result  of the latch mounting system generating a stress concentration in the acrylic. Increasing the relative modulus of the door frame in this area allows more of the load to be carried by the frame, reducing the stress in the acrylic.

If you need to fill a small cavity or cover a screw head I would use a series of carbon cloth patches and a  "compression bandage" to minimize resin.

Regards
Brent Regan

From: "Clark Baker" <bakercdb@gmail.com>
Date: September 4, 2007 10:55:09 PM EDT
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Subject: [LML] Re: Carbon Fiber Flox
Reply-To: "Lancair Mailing List" <lml@lancaironline.net>

I understand that there are 3 Legacy RG kit options:
-std kit (material amount of e-glass)
-my "all carbon", as in ALL carbon (obviously must be layed up in the Philippines that way)
- the Reno race model, which is all carbon, plus extra bids from the windows back to handle the extra HP and speed.

 
On 9/4/07, Alan Adamson <aadamson@highrf.com> wrote:
Clark, I'm curious of a couple of things.
 
Are there now 3 RG kits?
 
- The standard one that is carbon on the outside skins, but the main spars and inside components are eglass (spar caps are still carbon)
- The carbon upgraded one for 9K - were you get what in carbon?  I'm going to assume the parts that are to be bonded in during the build. this would include the center console? The load pads? the rear tunnel?  I'm also going to assume that the rear seatbacks, and bulkheads (firewall, etc) are still eglass?
- Then the version that is *all* carbon, this includes all the spars, ribs, bulkheads, etc plus the items above and they usually do the "reno wrap" on this one (an extra wrap from the rear windows to the tail of 1 or 2 bids), and last I heard, it's *way* more than 9K work of upgrade costs and probably a significant lead time.
 
As an aside, you can get milled carbon, but I suspect it's wickedly expensive and I have no idea if it's as structural as flox.  If you are doing for weight reduction for as much flox as you'll use, I doubt it's significant.
 
Just curious.
Alan

From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Clark Baker
Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2007 7:06 PM
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Subject: [LML] Carbon Fiber Flox

 
I will soon be starting my all carbon Legacy RG kit.  After spending an extra $9k to have all the components made in carbon fiber (the standard Legacy RG kit has a material amount of e-glass),  I started wondering if there was a carbon fiber equivalent for the traditional flox (milled cotton).  There is a not insignificant amount of heavy flox in our aircraft.
 
Has anyone used a carbon fiber flox and have any comments, or know of any suppliers?
 
Regards,
Clark Baker
 
LNC2 360, 775hrs



--
Clark Baker

mobile: + 1 917 558 5567
home: + 1 646 964 4159


bakercdb@gmail.com
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