X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2006 23:06:34 -0500 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from fed1rmmtao01.cox.net ([68.230.241.38] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.1.2) with ESMTP id 1578121 for lml@lancaironline.net; Fri, 17 Nov 2006 22:42:59 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=68.230.241.38; envelope-from=sportform@cox.net Received: from fed1rmimpo02.cox.net ([70.169.32.72]) by fed1rmmtao01.cox.net (InterMail vM.6.01.06.03 201-2131-130-104-20060516) with ESMTP id <20061118034238.CVTF9173.fed1rmmtao01.cox.net@fed1rmimpo02.cox.net> for ; Fri, 17 Nov 2006 22:42:38 -0500 Received: from [10.0.1.2] ([70.187.131.148]) by fed1rmimpo02.cox.net with bizsmtp id o3ik1V0063CFU5S0000000; Fri, 17 Nov 2006 22:42:45 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) References: X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-44-830561398 X-Original-Message-Id: <10B0EA5A-72BE-4259-AC17-6A93752357E9@cox.net> From: Barry Hancock Subject: Fwd: [LML] Fw: Air Force Spin Doctrine X-Original-Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2006 19:42:35 -0800 X-Original-To: Lancair Mailing List X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.2) --Apple-Mail-44-830561398 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed Dear fellow intrepid aviators, Not that I doubted the veracity of Mark's post, but I did forward it =20 on to a buddy who was a T-37 training mucky-muck in the 90's. With =20 his permission, I post his input - which is merely interesting and =20 informative...and you'll further see why the T-37 is such a great =20 comparison. Cheers, Barry > The spin info is completely accurate=85he left some aircraft-specific =20= > stuff out, but that is how we got out of spins. > > > > The T-37 is fairly unique in that it is side-by-side and had a =20 > large amount of fuel in the wings. The side-by-side fuselage tends =20= > to develop lift at the nose when spinning making it more difficult =20 > to get the nose down in recovery=85hence the spin strakes on the nose =20= > to spoil the lift. Having fuel in the wings caused problems too in =20= > that the rotation of the spin slews the fuel out to the tips. Thus =20= > it develops a goodly amount of rotational momentum that the rudder =20 > itself can=92t overcome. Thus, the procedure to bring the stick full =20= > back: reduces the rotational momentum by getting the CG and spin =20 > axis as far apart as possible (ice skater spreading her arms out). =20 > Then opposite rudder for one turn=97to further reduce the rotational =20= > momentum. Then stick abruptly full forward to drive the nose down =20 > and reduce the AOA below stall. This transitions any remaining =20 > rotational momentum into roll momentum which is easily controlled =20 > with aileron=85 I imagine the Lancairs would behave in a similar =20 > manner=85 The tail configuration has a lot to do with things too=85=20= > how much rudder is effective at stall AOA=85 > > > > The best flying job I had was being a Spin Demo pilot=97showing =20 > instructors all the bad habits of the T-37 in the spin=85 Got to =20 > show them stick only recoveries (that sometimes didn=92t work), show =20= > them how using slow anti-spin controls would actual accelerate the =20 > spin to the point where it would not recover (and make your eyes =20 > spin like crazy!=85about 2 rotations per second!), etc, was a blast! =20= > We did 7 spins in a 1.0 sortie=85.did that a couple of hundred times =20= > with instructor trainees=85 what a blast=85 > > > > > > > > Jeff Linebaugh > > > > > > > From: "Mark Ravinski" > > Date: November 16, 2006 1:11:09 PM PST > > To: "Lancair Mailing List" > > Subject: [LML] Fw: Air Force Spin Doctrine > > Reply-To: "Lancair Mailing List" > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Mark Ravinski > > To: Lancair Mailing List > > Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 8:32 AM > > Subject: Air Force Spin Doctrine > > > > Listers, > > Let me share some spin training info with you. Consider it a return =20= > on your tax dollars. > > The Air Force (in the 70's) used T-37 jets for spin training and =20 > these Cessna aircraft were specifically designed for this =20 > requirement. Everything I have seen in my 360 suggests that the =20 > spin entry and recovery characteristics are similar to the T-37. I =20 > have not let my 360 enter a developed spin because the Lancair =20 > factory and POH suggest that it is not recommended. =46rom my =20 > experience, I know that aircraft of the same make and model can =20 > spin very differently. Even variations in loading and fuel =20 > distribution can have an effect. > > A "developed" spin is a stable rotation that may take about 3 or 4 =20 > turns with the nose bobbing up and down, to some extent, after the =20 > initial entry. I know that some aircraft simply cannot ever recover =20= > from a developed spin. > > I don't need to know if mine is one of them. > > I did want to explore the stall / spin entry / recovery scenario. =20 > This is within POH limitations. I have done deep stalls in numerous =20= > configurations to spin entry and recovery - maybe 100 times in the =20 > 360 never letting the spin develop past the start of rotation. =20 > Recovery has always been immediate on opposite rudder application. > > The Air Force procedure is designed to recover from any spin - even =20= > inverted or IMC. > > 1: Throttle idle. > > 2: Rudder and aileron neutral. > > 3: Stick ABRUPTLY full aft and hold. (this step is intended to =20 > right the aircraft from an inverted spin). > > 4: Determine spin direction and ABRUPTLY apply full opposite =20 > rudder. (The gyro turn needle was found to be the most reliable =20 > method for this - even more so than outside reference due to =20 > possible pilot disorientation.) > > 5: One turn after opposite rudder, stick ABRUPTLY full forward and =20 > hold. (the "abruptly" here is important because if not done briskly =20= > enough, an accelerated flat spin could develop. > > 6: Recover from the resulting dive. > > This procedure is guaranteed to recover within one turn of going =20 > abruptly full forward stick. However, out of hundreds of spins I've =20= > logged there was once it didn't. The student went through the steps =20= > correctly and the plane kept spinning. I took it and followed the =20 > procedure again - my best performance - and when I went full =20 > forward on the stick it took over two full turns to recover. I =20 > wrote that plane up as having a problem. > > We were very close to having to bail. > > This sort of flying, like many others, is not something to be =20 > learned without an instructor. Some stalls and spin entries can be =20 > very disorienting. I highly recommend some unusual attitude, stall, =20= > spin avoidance training. > > Most pilots who do this as part of an aerobatics course have the =20 > time of their life and say it's the most worthwhile instruction =20 > they've ever had. > > Mark Ravinski > > N360KB 1394 hrs. > > EX Air Force T-37 driver > > > > > > > --Apple-Mail-44-830561398 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=WINDOWS-1252
Dear fellow intrepid = aviators,

Not = that I doubted the veracity of Mark's post, but I did forward it on to a = buddy who was a T-37 training mucky-muck in the 90's.=A0 With his = permission, I post his input - which is merely interesting and = informative...and you'll further see why the T-37 is such a great = comparison.

Cheers,

Barry

The spin info is completely accurate=85he = left some aircraft-specific stuff out, but that is how we got out of = spins.

=A0The T-37 is fairly unique in that it is = side-by-side and had a large amount of fuel in the wings.=A0 = The side-by-side = fuselage tends to develop lift at the nose when spinning making it more = difficult to get the nose down in recovery=85hence the spin strakes on = the nose to spoil the lift.=A0 Having fuel in the wings caused problems = too in that the rotation of the spin slews the fuel out to the = tips.=A0 Thus it develops a goodly amount of = rotational momentum that the rudder itself can=92t overcome.=A0 = Thus, the procedure to = bring the stick full back: reduces the rotational momentum by getting = the CG and spin axis as far apart as possible (ice skater spreading her = arms out). Then opposite rudder for one turn=97to further reduce the = rotational momentum.=A0 Then stick abruptly full forward to drive = the nose down and reduce the AOA below stall.=A0 = This transitions any = remaining rotational momentum into roll momentum which is easily = controlled with aileron=85=A0 I imagine the Lancairs would behave in a = similar manner=85=A0=A0=A0 The tail configuration has a lot to do = with things too=85how much rudder is effective at stall AOA=85

=A0The best flying job I had was being a = Spin Demo pilot=97showing instructors all the bad habits of the T-37 in = the spin=85=A0 Got to show them stick only recoveries = (that sometimes didn=92t work), show them how using slow anti-spin = controls would actual accelerate the spin to the point where it would = not recover (and make your eyes spin like crazy!=85about 2 rotations per = second!), etc, was a blast!=A0 We did 7 spins in a 1.0 sortie=85.did = that a couple of hundred times with instructor trainees=85 what a = blast=85

=A0=A0=A0Jeff Linebaugh



From: "Mark Ravinski" <>Date: November 16, 2006 1:11:09 PM PSTTo: "Lancair Mailing List" <>Subject: [LML] Fw: Air Force Spin = Doctrine

Reply-To: "Lancair Mailing List" <>

----- Original Message = -----

Mark = Ravinski Lancair Mailing = List

Thursday, November 16, 2006 8:32 = AM Air Force Spin = Doctrine

=A0

Listers,Let me share some spin training info with you. = Consider it a return on your tax = dollars.

The Air Force (in the 70's) used T-37 jets for spin = training and these Cessna aircraft were specifically designed for this = requirement. Everything I have seen in my 360 suggests that the spin = entry and recovery characteristics are similar to the T-37. I have not = let my 360 enter a developed spin because the Lancair factory and POH = suggest that it is not recommended. =46rom my experience, I know that = aircraft of the same make and model can spin very differently. Even = variations in loading and fuel distribution can have an = effect.

A "developed" spin is a stable rotation that may take = about 3 or 4 turns with the nose bobbing up and down, to some extent, = after the initial entry. I know that some aircraft simply cannot ever = recover from a developed spin.I don't need to know if mine is one of = them.I did want to explore the stall / spin entry / = recovery scenario. This is within POH limitations. I have done deep = stalls in numerous configurations to spin entry and recovery - maybe 100 = times in the 360 never letting the spin develop past the start of = rotation. Recovery has always been immediate on opposite rudder = application.

The Air Force procedure is designed to recover from = any spin - even inverted or IMC.1: Throttle idle.2: Rudder and aileron = neutral.3: Stick ABRUPTLY full aft and hold. (this step is = intended to right the aircraft from an inverted = spin).4: Determine spin direction and ABRUPTLY apply full = opposite rudder. (The gyro turn needle was found to be the most reliable = method for this - even more so than outside reference due to possible = pilot disorientation.)5: One turn after opposite rudder, stick ABRUPTLY full = forward and hold. (the "abruptly" here is important because if not done = briskly enough, an accelerated flat spin could = develop.6: Recover from the resulting = dive.This procedure is guaranteed to recover within one = turn of going abruptly full forward stick. However, out of hundreds of = spins I've logged there was once it didn't. The student went through the = steps correctly and the plane kept spinning. I took it and followed the = procedure again - my best performance - and when I went full forward on = the stick it took over two full turns to recover. I wrote that plane up = as having a problem.We were very close to having to = bail.This sort of flying, like many others, is not = something to be learned without an instructor. Some stalls and spin = entries can be very disorienting. I highly recommend some unusual = attitude, stall, spin avoidance = training.Most pilots who do this as part of an aerobatics = course have the time of their life and say it's the most worthwhile = instruction they've ever had.Mark RavinskiN360KB 1394 hrs.EX Air Force T-37 = driver



=A0


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