Mailing List lml@lancaironline.net Message #38570
From: terrence o'neill <troneill@charter.net>
Sender: <marv@lancaironline.net>
Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Down anywhere !! spinning
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 13:55:13 -0500
To: <lml>
> Not in an actual spin, where one wing is stalled, no.  If the instrument is
> on the left side of the panel the ball will deflect to the left in a spin,
> no matter which direction you are spinning.  If the instrument is on the
> right the ball will always deflect to the right.
>
> Tom Gourley
 
Hmmm... Tom, what airplanes are we talking about? C152s?  If it had two needle-ball isntruments, one on the left and one of the rightpanel, would they show the plane was yawing both ways at once?. This is strange.
 
I was recalling experience from unusual attitude recovery training in SNJs 50 years ago... the needle and ball was in the middle of the panel.
Step on the ball -- was the procedure to recover from any unusual attitude ... the instructor had you under the 'bag' so you couldn't see outside, and then put the plane through some crazy gyrations, and finally said 'You've got it." You might be upside down, or going straight up, or whatever.  A little game for fun. Anyway, you had to recover.  Then I'd just do the procedure, and it worked quickly, every time. Step on the ball to stop the yaw and the turn, then apply or reduce power depending on if the altimeter was going up or down, while applying elevator , up or down, to stop altitude changing up or down.
 
But I don't know it any one of those unusual attitudes was a spin.  So my suggestion to 'step on the ball' for spin recovery might be wrong.  Sorry about that.
But your info that the ball is useless or ambiguous for seeing yaw in a spin is puzzing.  So I did some refresher reading about spins.
 
Back when I was designing experimentals i did a lot of reading about spins and characteristics of planes that are good or bad for recovery.  In 1960 NASA did TR R-57 "Status of Spin Research"; and in 1977  NASA Tech Paper 1009 "Spin Tnnel Investigation of Spinning Characteristics of Typical Single-Engine GenAv Airplane Designs -- I - Low Wing Model A: Effect of Tail Configurations."
Langley's been spin-tunnel testing since about 1940, and by now have certainly tested about 1000 dirrerent configurations with good correlation between the mdels and the airpalnes.
An interesting addition to NASA spin info I found was NASA TT GF-442, which is  "Flight Testing of Aircraft" by M.G. Kotik et al, USSR aeronautical engineers prepared for students at their aviation colleges, a translation with ten pages of descriptions of both normal and inverted spins, and of each of those, stable or unstable, and of the three types of stable, and three types of unstable.  Also given are the four types of recovery.  All four could be used for normal spins, and three for inverted spins, and it noted which is appropriate for which type of spin.  The types were 1. Rudder, elevator and ailerons neutral; 2. Rudder agaisnt, elev neutral  after 2-4 seconds, and ail neutral. 3. Rud against, and after 3-6 sec., elev against full down, ail neutral; 4. Same as 3., but simulatneously with rudder, the ailerons are deflected with the spin.  ... pretty much what we do.
  The report describes the normal spin as occuring at "medium to low altitudes, with extended duration, at high angles of attack, at very high rates of magnitude of rate of rotation with very slight oscillations."
    It defines (on p. 284) "The spin axis is the axis of the spiral-like trajectory of motion of the aircraft's center of gravity in the spin, and the spin radius is the radius of the spiral along which the aircraft's center of gravity moves in the steady state spin regime." That is, the aircraft does not spin around it's own CG, but it and its CG whips around outward on a radius from the spin axis. So there's a radial accelleration there ... which will move a slip-ball, depending on how the slip instrument is aligned.  The ball has to show an accelleration ... that's what it does.  I don't see how it could show opposite accellerations depending on which side of the panel it's on, U NLESS the spin axis of the plane you're describing is right through the middle of the plane... but then how could the plane spin?... with one wing going backwards?
 Then the ball wouldn't deflect at all if it was in the middle of the panel, or would show accelleration left or right if you moved the ball to the left or right of the axis.  But how can any plane spin about it's own CG?  Is one of your wings going backward?
One wing has to be stalled, and the other unstalled to provide energy for autorotation. 
 
 I guess what's really important for spin recovery IFC is seeing the direction of rotation ... and that should be the DG's needle.
Would that be right?  If you're turning right, then step on the opposite rudder?
 
Maybe this rumination will help us understand what's going on.
 
Terrence O'Neill
 
 
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