X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 17:54:49 -0500 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from vms048pub.verizon.net ([206.46.252.48] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.1.2) with ESMTP id 1570005 for lml@lancaironline.net; Wed, 15 Nov 2006 17:38:39 -0500 Received: from [192.168.111.2] ([70.18.205.49]) by vms048.mailsrvcs.net (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0J8S000QNMW1W3E0@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> for lml@lancaironline.net; Wed, 15 Nov 2006 16:38:26 -0600 (CST) X-Original-Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 17:38:24 -0500 From: Kevin Kossi Subject: Re: [LML] Re: for the record - Useful speculation on accidents In-reply-to: X-Original-To: "Lancair Mailing List" X-Original-Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.2) Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-3-639511213 References: --Apple-Mail-3-639511213 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed On Google Earth, if you measure from the buildings on the East side of Manhattan to the buildings on Roosevelt Island, it's about 900' Who make a turn like that with a 13Kt wind out of the East. Just about every one with any sense in New York knows not to fly the East River unless you plan on getting a clearance from LaGuardia to fly west to Teterbrough or back to the Hudson River. If it were me and I absolutely had to make that turn I would have gotten as much altitude I legally could, say 1,000', maneuvered to the Left side of the East River and made a right turn into the East 13 Kt wind, knowing that the buildings on the northern end of Roosevelt Island are lower than, say 300'. That would leave me with a balance of 1,200' to the eastern limit of the air space to make that turn. What they did made no sense. I know it's hard to concentrate on flying with so much, to look at, it's mesmerizing. Things ended up happening faster than they could deal with because they put themselves in an impossible situation with no exit plan. Kevin Kossi Legacy 72% New York City On Nov 15, 2006, at 3:10 PM, John McMahon wrote: > Good info Scott, > Another .02 for consideration. > > Then, all things being equal, an upwind (East) turn would have > shaved off 600' from his turn width and they would have made it.. > For this reason, I was always taught that if caught in a box canyon > the upwind direction was the preferred direction to turn in order > to minimize the width of the turn. I suspect that they never > thought of themselves as being in a box canyon because there were > no rocks! But their mental attitude of avoiding calling LGA and > not violating the corridor did in fact put them in that situation. > > Personally at some point in the turn, I'd have said the hell with > the corridor, widened the turn, missed the building and filed a > NASA report. > > On 11/14/06, Sky2high@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 11/14/2006 11:49:32 A.M. Central Standard Time, > kevin@airforcemechanical.com writes: > > it seems that the PIC just didn't want to contact La Guardia tower > for transit through their airspace as the VFR defined corridor was > coming to an end. The claim is that the 180 degree turn had to be > done in less than about 1700 feet of horizontal space with an > approximate loss of about 300 feet because of crosswind drift and > at a constant bank of over 50 degrees at the estimated speed of 97 > Kts, reducing the width to about 1400 feet. Well and good as this > seems to be the box canyon problem. Do you know the turn radius of > your aircraft at several speeds and bank angles? > > > -- > John McMahon > Lancair Super ES, N9637M --Apple-Mail-3-639511213 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Google Earth, if you measure = from the buildings on the East side of Manhattan to the buildings = on=A0Roosevelt Island, it's about 900'=A0 Who make a turn like that with = a 13Kt wind out of the East. Just about every one with any sense in New = York knows not to fly the East River unless you plan on getting a = clearance from LaGuardia to fly west to Teterbrough or back to the = Hudson River. If it were me and I=A0absolutely had to make that turn I = would have gotten as much altitude I=A0legally could, say 1,000',=A0 = maneuvered=A0to the Left side of the East River and made a right turn = into the East 13 Kt wind, knowing that the buildings on the northern end = of=A0Roosevelt Island are lower than, say 300'. That would leave me with = a balance of 1,200' to the eastern limit of the air space to make that = turn.
What they did made no sense. I know it's hard to concentrate = on flying with so much, to look at, it's mesmerizing. Things ended up = happening faster than they could deal with because they put themselves = in an=A0impossible situation with no exit plan.


Kevin = Kossi
Legacy 72%
New York = City
=A0
On Nov 15, 2006, at 3:10 PM, John = McMahon wrote:

Good info Scott,
Another .02 for = consideration.

Then, all things being equal, an upwind (East) = turn would have shaved off 600' from his turn width and they would have = made it..=A0 For this reason, I was always taught that if caught in a = box canyon the upwind direction was the preferred direction to turn in = order to minimize the width of the turn.=A0 I suspect that they never = thought of themselves as being in a box canyon because there were no = rocks!=A0 But their mental attitude of avoiding calling LGA and not = violating the corridor did in fact put them in that situation.=A0 =

Personally at some point in the turn, I'd have said the hell = with the corridor, widened the turn, missed the building and filed a=A0 = NASA report.=A0

On 11/14/06, Sky2high@aol.com <Sky2high@aol.com> = wrote:
=
In a message = dated 11/14/2006 11:49:32 A.M. Central Standard Time, kevin@airforcemechanical.com = writes:

=A0it seems that the PIC just didn't want to contact La = Guardia tower for transit through their airspace as the VFR defined = corridor was coming to an end.=A0 The claim is that the 180 degree turn = had to be done in less than about 1700 feet of horizontal space with an = approximate loss of about 300 feet because of crosswind drift and at a = constant bank of over 50 degrees at the estimated speed of 97 Kts, = reducing the width to about 1400 feet.=A0 Well and good as this seems to = be the box canyon problem. =A0Do you know the turn radius of your = aircraft at several speeds and bank angles?=A0 =


--
John = McMahon
Lancair Super ES, = N9637M

= --Apple-Mail-3-639511213--