X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 09:53:02 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from imo-m28.mx.aol.com ([64.12.137.9] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.1c.4) with ESMTP id 1425159 for lml@lancaironline.net; Thu, 28 Sep 2006 18:17:18 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.12.137.9; envelope-from=Sky2high@aol.com Received: from Sky2high@aol.com by imo-m28.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v38_r7.6.) id q.4bb.9400f50 (29672) for ; Thu, 28 Sep 2006 18:16:32 -0400 (EDT) From: Sky2high@aol.com X-Original-Message-ID: <4bb.9400f50.324da3bf@aol.com> X-Original-Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 18:16:31 EDT Subject: Re: [LML] Re: WLS Primer X-Original-To: lml@lancaironline.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1159481791" X-Mailer: 9.0 Security Edition for Windows sub 5330 X-Spam-Flag: NO -------------------------------1159481791 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en In a message dated 9/28/2006 2:43:50 P.M. Central Standard Time, =20 brent@regandesigns.com writes: =20 Brent, =20 =20 I agree with Scott 99% of the time but my experience with WLS is quite=20 different than his. I have been using WLS primer since the mid =E2=80=9880s when we were using =20= the WLS=20 paint system on IMSA GT race cars because it was extremely tough and easier= to=20 apply than Imron. I believe I was the first guy to introduce the product to= =20 the Lancair builders in the very early days of this list. My IV-P was topco= at=20 painted in =E2=80=9995, still looks great and is frequently complimented on= its=20 appearance. Primer is NOT a topcoat. It should not be used as a topcoat. It is designed= =20 to bond to a topcoat so you should not be surprised if it bonds to whatever= =20 is applied over it, be it =E2=80=9C=E2=80=9Drattle can=E2=80=9D pint, oil or= bug splats. If you want=20 to fly before the final topcoat then apply a thin, cheap one stage topcoat=20 that you will sand off later. Right. I readily admit to that mistake - that I did not have the painter=20 apply a "topcoat" before the PPG automotive base/clearcoat paint (including= the=20 Diamont "Extreme Rainbow"). I was an ignorant neophyte working alone in my= =20 garage without the benefit of the LML. Hmmm, I was somewhat like a mushroo= m=20 - kept in the dark with some, uh, fertilizer occasionally thrown on. Paint is heavy! If you put it on with a trowel you will have pounds of extr= a=20 weight. Spray one day and sand the next for the first couple of coats. If i= t=20 doesn't cure overnight then it is defective or wasn't mixed properly or=20 sufficiently. Spot prime areas that need lots of work. Stop sanding when yo= u burn=20 down to carbon. If you keep sanding you will only make things worse. You do not need to, nor should you, wet sand the primer. The surfactants,=20 minerals and other contamination in, or the water itself, will bond to the=20 primer. I used guide coat (thin black fast dry paint) and 180 grit to get t= he=20 surface flat followed by guide coat (again) and 220, then 320, then 400 gri= t to=20 progressively to remove scratches. Take three welding rods or straightened=20 wire coat hangers, bend them in half and wrap tape for 6" around the cut e= nds.=20 Use this like a mini carpet beater to clean your sanding media of clogs. Yeah, sure, now I know. The wet sanding did not produce any negative =20 effects. After you are happy with the flatness and finish, spray on a thin reduced=20 primer coat with a couple drops of pigment in it so you can remove it later= =20 with precision. If the weave starts to show it is the fault of the substrate, not the=20 primer. The heat and pressure that is used in the composite curing process=20= induces=20 stresses that relieve themselves over time through microstrain. This proces= s=20 can be accelerated (then sanded flat again) by thermally cycling the primed= =20 parts. I would spray some guide coat on the various parts so they are relat= ive=20 dark in color, put them on supports and place them in the summer sun. Repea= t=20 daily, weather permitting. Yep. Pre-preg glass certainly relieves itself.... I am sure others have=20 noted this "feature" although I probably would have had a better result wit= h a=20 "topcoat" before painting. The best tip I can give for producing the best finish coat is to NOT do it=20 yourself. Topcoat application is a skill that requires practice and is best= =20 left to someone that does it on a daily basis. Find a reputable automotive=20= body=20 shop with a large booth. IMHO you can get a better and cheaper job at an=20 automotive shop versus and aircraft specialist if you take the time to expl= ain=20 how to handle, and the importance of, the various parts. A picture of a=20 completed aircraft is helpful. Let them do the final sanding and prep. Hire= a=20 pinstripe specialist to do the graphics taping. It takes an experienced eye= to put=20 a tape line on the 3D surface and have it look good from all angles. I have= =20 seen lots of botched trim lines on the ramp. They draw the eye like a bad=20 toupee. Gee, your paint job looks...errrr...ahhh... fast! Yeah! Well, I built the craft for my education and "pleasure." I had to succumb=20 to pros only where the learning curve was too steep. Hmmmm, I should have=20= had=20 a plumber do the hard hydraulic lines. Most importantly, take the painter and his assistant aside and give each $5= 0=20 with the instruction to paint the plane like it belonged to them. The fact=20 that you trust them enough to give them a bonus up front will make you a=20 freaking hero! Promise another bonus at the end of the job too. Be on site=20= for the=20 actual painting to help move parts, mask, clean, run for lunch or whatever=20 else is needed. A little humility and respect will be rewarded with a quali= ty=20 job that lasts for decades. This works. I have painted two IV-Ps this way, both won outstanding=20 workmanship awards at OSH and both look great a decade later. Well, the best I could do was "Outstanding Workmanship, OSH '98" and =20 "Outstanding Aircraft, S'N'F '99". She still looks pretty good (in the sun= ) after=20 10 years of flight in the dirt below 18000 except for the chips from =20 constantly messing with the engine compartment and control surfaces. BTW, the WLS reducer is way too expensive to use for cleanup. Use some=20 el-cheapo fast lacquer thinner for that.=20 Hmmm, I always had reducer left over from each "gallon kit" of WLS. =20 Anyway, I agree with you if one uses others and machines to prep and paint =20 the airplane. Hmmmm, 4000 hours to slow build, 3000 of which was devoted t= o=20 sanding one thing or another. =20 Scott Krueger AKA Grayhawk Lancair N92EX IO320 SB 89/96 Aurora, IL (KARR) A man has got to know his limitations. (Too bad I didn't know mine) -------------------------------1159481791 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en
In a message dated 9/28/2006 2:43:50 P.M. Central Standard Time,=20 brent@regandesigns.com writes:
 
Brent,
 
 
<= FONT=20 style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size= =3D3>I agree=20 with Scott 99% of the time but my experience with WLS is quite different t= han=20 his.

I have been using WLS primer since the mid =E2=80=9880s when w= e were using=20 the WLS paint system on IMSA GT race cars because it was extremely tough a= nd=20 easier to apply than Imron. I believe I was the first guy to introduce the= =20 product to the Lancair builders in the very early days of this list. My IV= -P=20 was topcoat painted in =E2=80=9995, still looks great and is frequently co= mplimented=20 on its appearance.

Primer is NOT a topcoat. It should not be used a= s a=20 topcoat. It is designed to bond to a topcoat so you should not be surprise= d if=20 it bonds to whatever is applied over it, be it =E2=80=9C=E2=80=9Drattle ca= n=E2=80=9D pint, oil or bug=20 splats. If you want to fly before the final topcoat then apply a thin, che= ap=20 one stage topcoat that you will sand off later.
Right.  I readily admit to that mistake - that I did not have= the=20 painter apply a "topcoat" before the PPG automotive base/clearcoat pain= t=20 (including the Diamont "Extreme Rainbow").  I was an ignorant neop= hyte=20 working alone in my garage without the benefit of the LML.  Hmmm, I was= =20 somewhat like a mushroom - kept in the dark with some, uh, fertilizer=20 occasionally thrown on.
<= FONT=20 style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=3DArial color=3D#000000=20 size=3D3>

Paint is heavy! If you put it on with a trowel you will h= ave=20 pounds of extra weight. Spray one day and sand the next for the first coup= le=20 of coats. If it doesn't cure overnight then it is defective or wasn't mixe= d=20 properly or sufficiently. Spot prime areas that need lots of work. Stop=20 sanding when you burn down to carbon. If you keep sanding you will only ma= ke=20 things worse.

You do not need to, nor should you, wet sand the prim= er.=20 The surfactants, minerals and other contamination in, or the water itself,= =20 will bond to the primer. I used guide coat (thin black fast dry paint) and= 180=20 grit to get the surface flat followed by guide coat (again) and 220, then=20= 320,=20 then 400 grit to progressively to remove scratches. Take three welding rod= s or=20 straightened wire coat hangers,  bend them in half and wrap tape for=20= 6"=20 around the cut ends. Use this like a mini carpet beater to clean your sand= ing=20 media of clogs.
Yeah, sure, now I know.  The wet sanding did not produce any negat= ive=20 effects.
<= FONT=20 style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=3DArial color=3D#000000=20 size=3D3>

After you are happy with the flatness and finish, spray o= n a=20 thin reduced primer coat with a couple drops of pigment in it so you can=20 remove it later with precision.

If the weave starts to show it is t= he=20 fault of the substrate, not the primer. The heat and pressure that is used= in=20 the composite curing process induces stresses that relieve themselves over= =20 time through microstrain. This process can be accelerated (then sanded fla= t=20 again) by thermally cycling the primed parts. I would spray some guide coa= t on=20 the various parts so they are relative dark in color, put them on supports= and=20 place them in the summer sun. Repeat daily, weather=20 permitting.
Yep.  Pre-preg glass certainly relieves itself.... I am sure other= s=20 have noted this "feature" although I probably would have had a better result= =20 with a "topcoat" before painting.
<= FONT=20 style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=3DArial color=3D#000000=20 size=3D3>

The best tip I can give for producing the best finish coa= t is=20 to NOT do it yourself. Topcoat application is a skill that requires practi= ce=20 and is best left to someone that does it on a daily basis. Find a reputabl= e=20 automotive body shop with a large booth. IMHO you can get a better and che= aper=20 job at an automotive shop versus and aircraft specialist if you take the t= ime=20 to explain how to handle, and the importance of, the various parts. A pict= ure=20 of a completed aircraft is helpful. Let them do the final sanding and prep= .=20 Hire a pinstripe specialist to do the graphics taping. It takes an experie= nced=20 eye to put a tape line on the 3D surface and have it look good from all=20 angles. I have seen lots of  botched trim lines on the ramp. They dra= w=20 the eye like a bad toupee. Gee, your paint job looks...errrr...ahhh... fas= t!=20 Yeah!
Well, I built the craft for my education and "pleasure."  I had to= =20 succumb to pros only where the learning curve was too steep.  Hmmmm, I=20 should have had a plumber do the hard hydraulic lines.
<= FONT=20 style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=3DArial color=3D#000000=20 size=3D3>

Most importantly, take the painter and his assistant asid= e and=20 give each $50 with the instruction to paint the plane like it belonged to=20 them. The fact that you trust them enough to give them a bonus up front wi= ll=20 make you a freaking hero! Promise another bonus at the end of the job too.= Be=20 on site for the actual painting to help move parts, mask, clean, run for l= unch=20 or whatever else is needed. A little humility and respect will be rewarded= =20 with a quality job that lasts for decades.

This works. I have paint= ed=20 two IV-Ps this way, both won outstanding workmanship awards at OSH and bot= h=20 look great a decade later.
Well, the best I could do was "Outstanding Workmanship, OSH '98" and=20 "Outstanding Aircraft, S'N'F '99".  She still looks pretty good (in the= =20 sun) after 10 years of flight in the dirt below 18000 except for the chips f= rom=20 constantly messing with the engine compartment and control surfaces.
<= FONT=20 style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=3DArial color=3D#000000=20 size=3D3>

BTW, the WLS reducer is way too expensive to use for clea= nup.=20 Use some el-cheapo fast lacquer thinner for that.
Hmmm, I always had reducer left over from each "gallon kit" of WLS.
 
Anyway, I agree with you if one uses others and machines to prep and pa= int=20 the airplane.  Hmmmm, 4000 hours to slow build, 3000 of which was=20 devoted to sanding one thing or another.=20
 
Scott Krueger=20 AKA Grayhawk
Lancair N92EX IO320 SB 89/96
Aurora, IL (KARR)

A m= an=20 has got to know his limitations.
 (Too bad I didn't know=20 mine)
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