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Subject: Power gone? Where? LSE Timing revealed
X-Original-To: lml@lancaironline.net
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In a message dated 12/28/2005 9:51:24 P.M. Central Standard Time,
skipslater@earthlink.net writes:
The primary supplier if the EI's in use in the experimental market is Klaus
Sauvier and he refuses to provide anyone any data on the timing curves used
in the LSE ignitions. Without that, nobody can do a thorough analysis of
them because they have no manufacturer's baseline to work with. It's that lack
of data that gives pause to the Ada guys recommending something they can't
put on their test stand with hard data points.
Skip,
We, the members of the LML, have the opportunity to fill in the timing data
for the LSE. I have some for the way I fly, but not all the points over a
more complete power range. Interestingly, we can calculate the Electroair
numbers by referring to the CAFE article on EIs that identified the parameters
and resulting timing function.
We could indeed form a spreadsheet for O, IO and Turbo engines from 320 to
360 to 550 at different power levels based on RPM and MAP, for single and dual
LSE systems. Consider that the base timing is set to 20 degrees BTDC for CRs
greater than or equal to 8.7 and 25 degrees for CRs lower than that (I
believe the curve is the same otherwise). The LSE site indicates other curves are
available for Turbo engines. Additionally, we could note the change in
timing if only one of a dual LSE system is operating (partial failure mode).
Could I see the hands of those operating LSE ignitions with the display module?
Note also that the curves are "hard wired" for I read somewhere that LSE is
not using any "computer" processing.
Perhaps when the weather is better, LSE Lancair users could gather at some
central location and collect the data over a weekend, putting to rest the lack
of information about the timing.
For now and for my engine, an IO 320 with a 9:1 CR Iridium auto plugs and
mag gear timing sensors, I have verified that the timing agrees with a base of
20 DBTDC. At various RPM, I will see a difference of .5 to 1.2 degrees
between the two ignitions. I usually report the earlier timing - the first to
fire. I don't know how accurate the LSE display is because of the difference
between it and the VM EPI 800 engine monitor with respect to MAP and RPM with
the LSE display being pretty jumpy. Only the timing data comes from the LSE
display.
For starters, here are some data points I stumbled on that were recorded
last May, before secret airframe airspeed mods and over a rather narrow power
range (I hope the text spacing holds up):
LSE DATA (5-15-05
Baro Alt Temp IAS TAS MAP RPM CHT EGT
Cyl GPH Timing
30.00 5500 15C 165 182 23 2390
8.9 26.5
6500 178 197 25 2510 380 1300
4 10.6 25.0
370 1300 2
360 1280 3
370 1270 1
29.72 4600 14C 170 184 23.5 2350 360
1270 4 8.9 26.2
350 1270 3
350 1270 2
360 1250 1
29.72 3500 14C 162 170 21.2 2450
8.0 28.0
29.98 4500 13C 183 195 25 2510 370
1290 4 10.8 24.5
360 1280 3
350 1300 2
360 1280 1
29.96 9500 14C 168 198 22.1 2510 390
1290 4 9.2 27.0
370 1270 3
370 1290 2
370 1260 1
30.08 6500 15C 178 198 25 2500 370
1300 4 10.6 24.5
360 1290 3
360 1300 2
370 1270 1
30.08 8400 13C 170 195 23.1 2510
26.5
Sorry about the missing numbers, writing is such a pain - I hope somebody
out there automatically records engine data.
Scott Krueger AKA Grayhawk
Lancair N92EX IO320 SB 89/96
Aurora, IL (KARR)
Happy New Year to all!
-------------------------------1135832266
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML xmlns:o =3D "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office"><HEAD>
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e_document=20
face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size=3D2>
<DIV>
<DIV>In a message dated 12/28/2005 9:51:24 P.M. Central Standard Time,=20
skipslater@earthlink.net writes:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid"><=
FONT=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size=
=3D2>The=20
primary supplier if the EI's in use in the experimental market is Klaus=20
Sauvier and he refuses to provide anyone any data on the timing curves use=
d in=20
the LSE ignitions. Without that, nobody can do a thorough analysis o=
f=20
them because they have no manufacturer's baseline to work with. It's=
=20
that lack of data that gives pause to the Ada guys recommending something=20=
they=20
can't put on their test stand with hard data=20
points. </FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>Skip,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>We, the members of the LML, have the opportunity to fill in the timing=20=
data=20
for the LSE. I have some for the way I fly, but not all the points ove=
r a=20
more complete power range. Interestingly, we can calculate t=
he=20
Electroair numbers by referring to the CAFE article on EIs that identif=
ied=20
the parameters and resulting timing function.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>We could indeed form a spreadsheet for O, IO and Turbo engines from 320=
to=20
360 to 550 at different power levels based on RPM and MAP, for single and du=
al=20
LSE systems. Consider that the base timing is set to 20 degrees=20
BTDC for CRs greater than or equal to 8.7 and 25 degrees for CRs lower=20=
than=20
that (I believe the curve is the same otherwise). The LSE=20
site indicates other curves are available for Turbo engines. =
=20
Additionally, we could note the change in timing if only one of a dual=20=
LSE=20
system is operating (partial failure mode). Could I see the hands of t=
hose=20
operating LSE ignitions with the display module? Note also that the cu=
rves=20
are "hard wired" for I read somewhere that LSE is not using any "computer"=20
processing.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Perhaps when the weather is better, LSE Lancair users could gather at s=
ome=20
central location and collect the data over a weekend, putting to rest the la=
ck=20
of information about the timing.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>For now and for my engine, an IO 320 with a 9:1 CR Iridium auto pl=
ugs=20
and mag gear timing sensors, I have verified that the timing agrees with&nbs=
p;a=20
base of 20 DBTDC. At various RPM, I will see a difference of .5 to 1.2=
=20
degrees between the two ignitions. I usually report the earlier timing=
-=20
the first to fire. I don't know how accurate the LSE display is becaus=
e of=20
the difference between it and the VM EPI 800 engine monitor with respec=
t to=20
MAP and RPM with the LSE display being pretty jumpy. Only the timing d=
ata=20
comes from the LSE display.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>For starters, here are some data points I stumbled on that we=
re=20
recorded last May, before secret airframe airspeed mods and over a rath=
er=20
narrow power range (I hope the text spacing holds up):</DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">LSE DATA (5-15-05</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p> </o:p></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">Baro<SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>Alt<SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1"> =20
</SPAN>Temp<SPAN style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>IAS<SP=
AN=20
style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>TAS<S=
PAN=20
style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>MAP <SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>RPM<SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>CHT<SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>EGT<SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>Cyl<SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>GPH=20
Timing</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">30.00<SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>5500<SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>15C<SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>165<SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>182<S=
PAN=20
style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>23<SP=
AN=20
style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1"> =20
</SPAN>2390<SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-tab-count: 4"> &=
nbsp;  =
; &nb=
sp; =20
</SPAN>8.9<SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1"> =20
</SPAN>26.5</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p> </o:p></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1"> &=
nbsp; =20
</SPAN>6500<SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-tab-count: 2"> &=
nbsp; =20
</SPAN>178<SPAN style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1"> &nb=
sp;=20
</SPAN>197<SPAN style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1"> &nb=
sp;=20
</SPAN>25<SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1"> =20
</SPAN>2510<SPAN style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1"> =20
</SPAN>380<SPAN style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1"> &nb=
sp;=20
</SPAN>1300<SPAN style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>=
4<SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1"> &=
nbsp;=20
</SPAN>10.6<SPAN style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1"> =20
</SPAN>25.0</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-tab-count: 7"> &=
nbsp;  =
; &nb=
sp; &=
nbsp;  =
; &nb=
sp; =20
</SPAN>370<SPAN style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1"> &nb=
sp;=20
</SPAN>1300<SPAN style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>=
2</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-tab-count: 7"> &=
nbsp;  =
; &nb=
sp; &=
nbsp;  =
; &nb=
sp; =20
</SPAN>360<SPAN style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1"> &nb=
sp;=20
</SPAN>1280<SPAN style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>=
3</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-tab-count: 7"> &=
nbsp;  =
; &nb=
sp; &=
nbsp;  =
; &nb=
sp; =20
</SPAN>370<SPAN style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1"> &nb=
sp;=20
</SPAN>1270<SPAN style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>=
1</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">29.72<SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>4600<SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>14C<SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>170<SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>184<S=
PAN=20
style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>23.5<=
SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>2350<SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>360<SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>1270<=
SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>4<SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1"> &=
nbsp;=20
</SPAN>8.9<SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1"> =20
</SPAN>26.2<BR><SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-tab-count: 7"> &=
nbsp;  =
; &nb=
sp; &=
nbsp;  =
; &nb=
sp; =20
</SPAN>350<SPAN style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1"> &nb=
sp;=20
</SPAN>1270<SPAN style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>=
3</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-tab-count: 7"> &=
nbsp;  =
; &nb=
sp; &=
nbsp;  =
; &nb=
sp; =20
</SPAN>350<SPAN style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1"> &nb=
sp;=20
</SPAN>1270<SPAN style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>=
2</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-tab-count: 7"> &=
nbsp;  =
; &nb=
sp; &=
nbsp;  =
; &nb=
sp; =20
</SPAN>360<SPAN style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1"> &nb=
sp;=20
</SPAN>1250<SPAN style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>=
1</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p> </o:p></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">29.72<SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>3500<SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>14C<SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>162<SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>170<S=
PAN=20
style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>21.2<=
SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>2450<SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-tab-count: 4"> &=
nbsp;  =
; &nb=
sp; =20
</SPAN>8.0<SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1"> =20
</SPAN>28.0</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p> </o:p></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">29.98<SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>4500<SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>13C<SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>183<SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>195<S=
PAN=20
style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>25<SP=
AN=20
style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1"> =20
</SPAN>2510<SPAN style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1"> =20
</SPAN>370<SPAN style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1"> &nb=
sp;=20
</SPAN>1290<SPAN style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>=
4<SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1"> &=
nbsp;=20
</SPAN>10.8<SPAN style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1"> =20
</SPAN>24.5</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-tab-count: 7"> &=
nbsp;  =
; &nb=
sp; &=
nbsp;  =
; &nb=
sp; =20
</SPAN>360<SPAN style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1"> &nb=
sp;=20
</SPAN>1280<SPAN style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>=
3</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-tab-count: 7"> &=
nbsp;  =
; &nb=
sp; &=
nbsp;  =
; &nb=
sp; =20
</SPAN>350<SPAN style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1"> &nb=
sp;=20
</SPAN>1300<SPAN style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>=
2</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-tab-count: 7"> &=
nbsp;  =
; &nb=
sp; &=
nbsp;  =
; &nb=
sp; =20
</SPAN>360<SPAN style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1"> &nb=
sp;=20
</SPAN>1280<SPAN style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>=
1</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p> </o:p></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">29.96<SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>9500<SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>14C<SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>168<SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>198<S=
PAN=20
style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>22.1<=
SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>2510<SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>390<SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>1290<=
SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>4<SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1"> &=
nbsp;=20
</SPAN>9.2<SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1"> =20
</SPAN>27.0</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-tab-count: 7"> &=
nbsp;  =
; &nb=
sp; &=
nbsp;  =
; &nb=
sp; =20
</SPAN>370<SPAN style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1"> &nb=
sp;=20
</SPAN>1270<SPAN style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>=
3</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-tab-count: 7"> &=
nbsp;  =
; &nb=
sp; &=
nbsp;  =
; &nb=
sp; =20
</SPAN>370<SPAN style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1"> &nb=
sp;=20
</SPAN>1290<SPAN style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>=
2</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-tab-count: 7"> &=
nbsp;  =
; &nb=
sp; &=
nbsp;  =
; &nb=
sp; =20
</SPAN>370<SPAN style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1"> &nb=
sp;=20
</SPAN>1260<SPAN style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>=
1</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p> </o:p></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">30.08<SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>6500<SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>15C<SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>178<SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>198<S=
PAN=20
style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>25<SP=
AN=20
style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1"> =20
</SPAN>2500<SPAN style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1"> =20
</SPAN>370<SPAN style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1"> &nb=
sp;=20
</SPAN>1300<SPAN style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>=
4<SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1"> &=
nbsp;=20
</SPAN>10.6<SPAN style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1"> =20
</SPAN>24.5</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-tab-count: 7"> &=
nbsp;  =
; &nb=
sp; &=
nbsp;  =
; &nb=
sp; =20
</SPAN>360<SPAN style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1"> &nb=
sp;=20
</SPAN>1290<SPAN style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>=
3</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-tab-count: 7"> &=
nbsp;  =
; &nb=
sp; &=
nbsp;  =
; &nb=
sp; =20
</SPAN>360<SPAN style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1"> &nb=
sp;=20
</SPAN>1300<SPAN style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>=
2</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-tab-count: 7"> &=
nbsp;  =
; &nb=
sp; &=
nbsp;  =
; &nb=
sp; =20
</SPAN>370<SPAN style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1"> &nb=
sp;=20
</SPAN>1270<SPAN style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>=
1</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p> </o:p></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">30.08<SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>8400<SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>13C<SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>170<SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>195<S=
PAN=20
style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>23.1<=
SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>2510<SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-tab-count: 5"> &=
nbsp;  =
; &nb=
sp; &=
nbsp; =20
</SPAN>26.5</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"> </P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">Sorry about the missing n=
umbers,=20
writing is such a pain - I hope somebody out there automatically record=
s=20
engine data.</P></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT lang=3D0 face=3DArial size=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" PTSIZE=3D"10"=
>Scott Krueger=20
AKA Grayhawk<BR>Lancair N92EX IO320 SB 89/96<BR>Aurora, IL (KARR)<BR><BR>Hap=
py=20
New Year to all!<BR><BR><BR><BR></FONT></DIV></FONT></BODY></HTML>
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