Sender: "Marvin Kaye" <marv@lancaironline.net>
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 22:26:38 -0500
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From: "Carl La Rue" <c.larue@verizon.net>
Subject: GROSS WEIGHTS
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Colyn,

 

You asked a legitimate question about "feel" at weights above 3200 lbs. and
haven't had a direct answer.  I think I know why; it's hard to answer.  I've
flown my 3200# IVP to 3300, 3400 and 3500 in controlled conditions, on
purpose, so I would know my airplane's capabilities better, for the same
reason I've practiced slow flight in the burble and now know exactly when to
unload to catch the snap roll just as it starts (and yes, I've been late and
had to recover from vertical, and tried it again, and again.  Now I
believe.)

 

To me, it's a progressive feeling of discomfort as I exceed 3200#.  My CG is
always within limits, albeit moving aft as the weight increases, but the
airplane becomes progressively more "sensitive" (unstable?) in pitch.  It is
mostly noticeable immediately after takeoff where the pitch inputs needed
become relatively exaggerated to correct a slight tendency towards pitch
porpoising. (I don't have winglets and others may have a different feel than
mine.)  Higher gross also (obviously) leads to a longer T/O roll, slower
acceleration to climb speed and a decreased climb rate.  The airplane can
handle it, and has, but all the training and experience that I have garnered
in 50 years of challenging flying has sensitized me to those first moments
of flying after takeoff to initial climb speed with the airplane cleaned up
and able to maneuver to an off-airport parking place.  Gross weights that
cut my margin make me squirm.

 

Let me help you rethink your needs.  My aircraft has an empty weight of 2235
lbs.  Yours may be more or less.  I have the original 80 gallon fuel
capacity and no winglets.  Full fuel, two FAA occupants and 100 lbs of
baggage puts us at 3165 lbs.  The airplane flies great.  It's three easy
legs to Santa Barbara from eastern Ohio and two legs back.  Extended fuel
became an option after I had closed my wings and I would have added it but
LOP operation, which I learned from George B. in the Cayman Islands 5 or 6
years ago, made up for the gas that I now don't have to carry.  My guess is
that you will also become uncomfortable at the higher gross weights or
simply have no reason to operate there and, regardless of what your DAR will
"give" you, most of your flights will be like mine.  

 

Brent comes at this question from a hard-nosed engineering perspective.
Brent should be taken seriously, as should Charlie K.  

I'm not an engineer, or a DAR, but I have had to fly at the edge of the
performance envelope, and test it, in the past.  In that context, I think
that I would not have any fun flying the IVP at 3500 lbs or above on a
routine basis because it would make me squirm, adding stress which reduces
fun, etc.

 

Whatever weight you certify your plane for, Colyn, you have now had serious
input, as has Jeff L., the original questioner.  Thanks for asking; you are
now less likely to affect our insurance rates.

 

Carl La Rue    

 

 

 


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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Colyn,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>You asked a legitimate question about =
&#8220;feel&#8221; at
weights above 3200 lbs. and haven&#8217;t had a direct answer.&nbsp; I =
think I
know why; it&#8217;s hard to answer.&nbsp; I&#8217;ve flown my 3200# IVP =
to
3300, 3400 and 3500 in controlled conditions, on purpose, so I would =
know my
airplane&#8217;s capabilities better, for the same reason I&#8217;ve =
practiced slow
flight in the burble and now know exactly when to unload to catch the =
snap roll
just as it starts (and yes, I&#8217;ve been late and had to recover from =
vertical,
and tried it again, and again.&nbsp; Now I =
believe.)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>To me, it&#8217;s a progressive feeling of discomfort =
as I
exceed 3200#.&nbsp; My CG is always within limits, albeit moving aft as =
the
weight increases, but the airplane becomes progressively more =
&#8220;sensitive&#8221;
(unstable?) in pitch. &nbsp;It is mostly noticeable immediately after =
takeoff where
the pitch inputs needed become relatively exaggerated to correct a =
slight
tendency towards pitch porpoising. (I don&#8217;t have winglets and =
others may
have a different feel than mine.)&nbsp; Higher gross also (obviously) =
leads to
a longer T/O roll, slower acceleration to climb speed and a decreased =
climb
rate.&nbsp; The airplane can handle it, and has, but all the training =
and
experience that I have garnered in 50 years of challenging flying has =
sensitized
me to those first moments of flying after takeoff to initial climb speed =
with
the airplane cleaned up and able to maneuver to an off-airport parking =
place. &nbsp;Gross
weights that cut my margin make me squirm.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Let me help you rethink your needs.&nbsp; My aircraft =
has an
empty weight of 2235 lbs.&nbsp; Yours may be more or less.&nbsp; I have =
the
original 80 gallon fuel capacity and no winglets.&nbsp; Full fuel, two =
FAA occupants
and 100 lbs of baggage puts us at 3165 lbs.&nbsp; The airplane flies
great.&nbsp; It&#8217;s three easy legs to <st1:City w:st=3D"on">Santa =
Barbara</st1:City>
from eastern <st1:State w:st=3D"on"><st1:place =
w:st=3D"on">Ohio</st1:place></st1:State>
and two legs back.&nbsp; Extended fuel became an option after I had =
closed my
wings and I would have added it but LOP operation, which I learned from =
George
B. in the Cayman Islands 5 or 6 years ago, made up for the gas that I =
now don&#8217;t
have to carry.&nbsp; My guess is that you will also become uncomfortable =
at the
higher gross weights or simply have no reason to operate there and, =
regardless
of what your DAR will &#8220;give&#8221; you, most of your flights will =
be like
mine.&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Brent comes at this question from a hard-nosed =
engineering
perspective. Brent should be taken seriously, as should Charlie K.&nbsp; =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>I&#8217;m not an engineer, or a DAR, but I have had =
to fly
at the edge of the performance envelope, and test it, in the past.&nbsp; =
In
that context, I think that I would not have any fun flying the IVP at =
3500 lbs
or above on a routine basis because it would make me squirm, adding =
stress
which reduces fun, etc.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Whatever weight you certify your plane for, Colyn, =
you have
now had serious input, as has Jeff L., the original questioner. =
&nbsp;Thanks
for asking; you are now less likely to affect our insurance =
rates.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Carl La Rue =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

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