Return-Path: Sender: "Marvin Kaye" To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 16:33:58 -0500 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from smtpauth03.mail.atl.earthlink.net ([209.86.89.63] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.2.5) with ESMTP id 536294 for lml@lancaironline.net; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 13:02:38 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.86.89.63; envelope-from=liegner@earthlink.net Received: from [63.185.200.57] (helo=[63.185.200.20]) by smtpauth03.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CUU86-0006UN-Mm for lml@lancaironline.net; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 13:02:08 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: liegner@earthlink.net@pop.earthlink.net X-Original-Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: X-Original-Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 10:07:12 -0500 X-Original-To: "Lancair Mailing List" From: Jeffrey Liegner Subject: [LML] Re: VFR for flight testing (for LIVP, LIVPT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="============_-1111407900==_ma============" X-ELNK-Trace: edc6c9c2805b57e3d780f4a490ca69563f9fea00a6dd62bc713610d1cc0ceaba851bce3c2a31e354350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 63.185.200.57 --============_-1111407900==_ma============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I'm the person who asked the original question under the subject: "LIVP 40 Hr Test Period...Not Above 17,500'?" Since then, with the ListServ answers, I have researched and surmised the following: Reference: FAA Regs, Pubs, Rules, Forms, Orders: § 91.305, § 91.319, AC 90-89, 8130.2F (135, 136, 152, 153) "Operating limitations must be designed to fit the specific situation encountered." Since the LIVP is designed for the flight levels, operational testing in this altitude is appropriate. "During phase I flight testing to meet the requirements of § 91.319(b), all flights must be conducted within the geographical area described as follows..." describes only lateral limits of the test area, not altitude limits or types of controlled airspace. "All test flights, at a minimum, must be conducted under VFR, day only. Guidance concerning the scope and detail of test flights can be found in AC 90-89." This describes the conditions, not the flight plan filed. AC 90-89 makes NO mention of flight plan restrictions, or VFR vs IFR conditons, or restrictions from Class A airspace. "No person may flight test an aircraft except over open water, or sparsely populated areas, having light air traffic." This addresses the restriction from Class B airspace, which by definition is NOT a "sparsely populated area." During the flight test period, there is NO written restriction against filing and flying under an IFR flight plan. One only needs to be in Daytime VFR conditions. Similarly, under an IFR flight plan within Class A airspace, one can not log IFR filght time unless operating in IFR conditions (IMC), so VFR operations in Class A under an IFR flight plan does occur routinely. There is no stated restriction against operating in Class A airspace during flight test, so long as the limits defined on FAA Form 8130-7 permit flight tests in this controlled airspace. There appears to be some differences between DARs and their interpretation of the FAA rules. While this is unfortunate, I have seen this to be the case elsewhere. Per Charlie Kohler (DAR): "It's my opinion , that FAR 91.305---91.319 and FAA order 8130.2 F do not explicitly prohibit a flight above 18,000 feet. The intent of the order is clear that test flights during this phase will limit flight with in a designated area that will not be over densely populated areas/congested airways or create a hazard to any other air traffic or property/ personnel on the ground." I would appreciate if one of the LIVP or LIVPT drivers would fax me (973-729-8322) or post on the ListServ their FAA Form 8130-7 Operating Limitations used to define the test area (I will scan yours in and email them to others upon request). This way, we can collectively share the wording used to successfully receive flight test authorization in the Class A airspace. Thank you. Jeff Liegner in New Jersey >Posted for "Jim Auman" : > >You cannot be above Flight level 180 (in Controlled Airspace) unless you are >on an IFR flight plan. Controlled airspace is Class A airspace. > There are also pilot qualifications as stated re: endorsements not >to mention >the equipment required. --============_-1111407900==_ma============ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit [LML] Re: VFR for flight testing (for LIVP, LIVPT)
I'm the person who asked the original question under the subject: "LIVP 40 Hr Test Period...Not Above 17,500'?"  Since then, with the ListServ answers, I have researched and surmised the following:

Reference: FAA Regs, Pubs, Rules, Forms, Orders: § 91.305, § 91.319, AC 90-89, 8130.2F (135, 136, 152, 153)

"Operating limitations must be designed to fit the specific situation encountered."  Since the LIVP is designed for the flight levels, operational testing in this altitude is appropriate.

"During phase I flight testing to meet the requirements of § 91.319(b), all flights must be conducted within the geographical area described as follows..." describes only lateral limits of the test area, not altitude limits or types of controlled airspace.

"All test flights, at a minimum, must be conducted under VFR, day only.  Guidance concerning the scope and detail of test flights can be found in AC 90-89."  This describes the conditions, not the flight plan filed.  AC 90-89 makes NO mention of flight plan restrictions, or VFR vs IFR conditons, or restrictions from Class A airspace.

"No person may flight test an aircraft except over open water, or sparsely populated areas, having light air traffic."  This addresses the restriction from Class B airspace, which by definition is NOT a "sparsely populated area."

During the flight test period, there is NO written restriction against filing and flying under an IFR flight plan.  One only needs to be in Daytime VFR conditions.  Similarly, under an IFR flight plan within Class A airspace, one can not log IFR filght time unless operating in IFR conditions (IMC), so VFR operations in Class A under an IFR flight plan does occur routinely.

There is no stated restriction against operating in Class A airspace during flight test, so long as the limits defined on FAA Form 8130-7 permit flight tests in this controlled airspace.

There appears to be some differences between DARs and their interpretation of the FAA rules.  While this is unfortunate, I have seen this to be the case elsewhere.  Per Charlie Kohler (DAR):
"It's my opinion , that FAR 91.305---91.319 and FAA order 8130.2 F  do not explicitly prohibit a flight above 18,000 feet.  The intent of the order is clear that test flights during this phase will limit flight with in a designated area that will not be over densely populated areas/congested airways or create a hazard to any other air traffic or property/ personnel on the ground."

I would appreciate if one of the LIVP or LIVPT drivers would fax me (973-729-8322) or post on the ListServ their FAA Form 8130-7  Operating Limitations used to define the test area (I will scan yours in and email them to others upon request).  This way, we can collectively share the wording used to successfully receive flight test authorization in the Class A airspace.

Thank you.

Jeff Liegner in New Jersey







Posted for "Jim Auman" <jimauman@comcast.net>:
You cannot be above Flight level 180 (in Controlled Airspace) unless you are
on an IFR flight plan.  Controlled airspace is Class A airspace.
  There are also pilot qualifications as stated re: endorsements not to mention
the equipment required.

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